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On Thursday we had a day of defensive tactics training. All Mass. departments must submit to the training approved by the criminal justice training council. The focus seems to be kindler / gentler, lawsuit adverse training with little to no basis in reality. Three instructors came to the island to administer the training. I must state up front that I donít blame these three for the curriculum that they have to teach. They were great guys and seemed to be experienced cops who knew what works and what was crap. I let the department use my Krav Maga facility for this training. Seeing how I planned to ignore most of the techniques, it provided me with an opportunity to get caught up on some bookkeepingÖ
The worst technique that I saw was a defense against an overhead stab with an edged weapon. They taught that the officer should move in and strike the attacker with both hands at the attackerís shoulder. I watched as our guys dutifully tried to apply this technique. They would have looked like sushi. The weapon was not controlled until long after someone would have received an impromptu kidney removal. It was bad.
The runner-up for worst technique was the defense against a gun grab that involved punching the attackerís forearm to force a release. I didnít want to be ìthat guyî, so I promised myself that Iíd keep my big mouth shut. I actually did a pretty good job of it, too (if you knew me, youíd know how hard this truly was!). The defenses required strength to defeat strength, were overly complex and did not always keep the officer out of danger once they addressed the immediate threat. Nor were the techniques based on natural reactions, another Krav Maga hallmark.
The main instructor did issue a disclaimer more than once that they were teaching the required techniques, but that Krav Maga techniques were far superior. He asked me to demonstrate the Krav Maga defense for gun from the front. It was a perfect call to show the differences. The instructor also told those officers who arenít training with us that they were, in his words, ìÖstupid, lazy or both.î Nice plug, eh!
Anyway, Iím sad to see what is being pushed out as viable techniques. Iím wondering if thereís any chance of changing some of the entrenched thinking about this and getting them to convert to Krav Maga. I can dream, right?
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Oh Dang Steve! I cringed when I read about their version of the overhead stab defense! Are they nuts??:confused:
Punching the attacker’s forearm as a gun disarm? Good grief
Sounds like the powers that be have to SEE how lame their training is side by side with KM to get any clue:Surprised:
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Well Steve it’s been my experience here in both the 9th Circus Court and the People’s Republic of Oregon that you have to do the best you can with what you have. I have been in many of those same training sessions myself. I find value in all the training I get and try to keep an open mind. Using the bad training as a way of working through the techniques and seeing how they compare to what I currently favor, which is of course KM. However, I am not a purist. I left that mentality behind when I transitioned from TKD to KM. Also I must say that I am saddened when I hear KM students with the same attitude. The first thing that comes along and proves its self to be better than KM I am all for it. However in 20 years I haven’t seen it…
All that being said the best way to change things is by affecting one officer at a time. That’s how I did it up here. KM was not well received up here at all when I first started. Now I have been fortunate to see Oregon State Police, Medford Police, Dept. of Corrections, just to name a few that are all on board with KM. It didn’t happen one agency at a time but one cop at a time. Good things need no sales, they sell themselves. I try to keep this in mind when I get frustrated with our state academy. I just have to keep plugging along, one patrol officer, one corrections officer at a time. I show them the value of KM training and they will “sell” it for us.
I believe officer deaths are down overall because of training like KM. So keep training, keep teaching and don’t cringe when you see that “other” training. Look at it, know what it is, know the weaknesses of it and keep training one cop at a time. Hang in there!
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
I know KM’s not the end-all, be-all and plenty of folks have cross trained from other styles/methods. Just reading about those 2 methods used had me thinking why they wouldn’t work.
Sure, use what you got, but if there’s something better that will save your life, it sure can’t hurt to investigate it. I’ve got different hints that I’ve gotten over the years from instructors on how to help my techniques. There have been plenty of times I’ve thrown away one hint for another cause it helped my technique all the better.
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
I get what you’re saying, Kirsten. And you’re right – at least by seeing the techniques that I didn’t like, I was able to think about why I didn’t like them. It helped me appreciate Imi’s basic order of operations: address the immediate threat, counter-attack as soon as possible, don’t trade one danger for another, etc. And yes, I also believe in using this poor training to help me redouble my efforts to teach my fellow officers more effective techniques to keep them alive.
I didn’t mean to come across as a big whiner about this training session, although I admit that re-reading my original post that’s how I sound…
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
FWIW, I don’t think you’re whining Steve – I think you care about the welfare of your partners.
We also go through phases where some of the powers that be try to delete our grappling or boxing or dynamic engagement scenario (aka rockdown or gauntlet) trainings, etc. It can be frustrating. Luckily for us, our force policy is actually quite decent, most of our brass is on board with providing good training for our personnel, and we have a great relationship with KMWW.
In order to bring KM on board, I know that a meeting was arranged where KM could be formally introduced and presented to our powers that be (I didn’t play any part in that). The end result is that we now heartily embrace KM in our DT curriculum.
Rhetorically, who are your powers that be when it comes to deciding force policy, training regimens/curricula? Who has influence with them? If your instructors are all on the same page that the current techniques need to be changed/updated/modified/replaced, it seems like you would have a solid front to encourage change… ?
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Thanks for your reply, Don. I’m looking at this situation as an opportunity to take a positive step.
During my Bas workout and studio cleaning session today (did you know that when you own a studio you double as the janitorial staff?), I envisioned an opportunity to present Krav Maga as follows: Take a random police academy class and divide them in half. Have one group train in the current method and the other train with Krav Maga’s force training instructors. Demonstrate the significant differences to the committee who decides such things (gun grab defenses, gun takeaways, edged weapons defenses in particular) and let them evaluate the effectiveness of each.
Who knows? When people see someone like Jon Pascal in action, it will certainly be eye-opening!
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
You read my mind Steve – Jon is phenomenal! In addition, he’s a really good guy with a huge heart. He is a reserve deputy with my department and was instrumental in changing a lot of what we do to KM – I believe he was the one presenting/demo-ing to our command staff. I don’t want to speak for him, but I truly believe that, if he has an opening in his crazy schedule, he would be happy to be there for you and your department.
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
In this case, we’d be trying to change the curriculum for the entire Commonwealth of Mass. Like I said, no small task! Our department is very fortunate to have a chief who started out working on the streets. He gets it, plain and simple. He sent two of us to force training in 2006 (when I met Mr. Pascal).
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
When you start whining, don’t worry- we will let you know… 🙂
Until then, “venting” is allowed at all times!! We all have been there. It’s really hard when you see the answer so clearly and nobody wants to even admit there is a problem. It can be discouraging. I am just glad more of you are training and working hard to bring KM to your areas. You guys save lives, so if it requires me to sit here and read your “venting”, then I am happy to do it!!
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Thank you, Kirsten! We’ll be doing some knife defenses in the near future (assuming I survive my phase training next week!).
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Question for the group…
Do you think the reason that many Police Departments and POST Commisions don’t update or adopt the curriculum of Krav Maga is to avoid a law suits? I remember asking this same question to one of the police officers that trains in KM out here and he said that the defensive tactics they teach at the academy are a joke. I asked him why the police department or the police academy didn’t adopt the KM curriculum? He said that is was a liability issue. No one wants to see a cop throwing punches, kicks or elbows at someone. I asked, “Even if you are defending yourself from a violent attack?”. He said yes, even then. It’s a sad commentary but it may be true for the rest of the police departments around the country which makes it difficult for them to adopt a new way of applying defensive tactics that will save a police officers life.
Like Kirsten said…one police officer at at time.
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
Yeah, Eric, I am sad to say that I completely believe that to be the case.
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
It’s not so much directed at KM, but at the idea of officers actually fighting back… the general public believes we are spittons, kickbags, and targets and since we get paid, we have to put up with it.
Re: Tolerating non-Krav Maga defensive tactics training
One of the things I find fascinating about Krav Maga is not so much the actual techniques themselves but rather the stress training scenarios that are so vitally important in LE training. Based off my research, if more stress scenario practice was done, it would greatly help officers in learning how to de-esculate a situation before it becomes physical. Physical techniques would of course be the last resort (unless it was an explosive situation where one couldn’t de-escalate and they had to react). Maybe some LE agencies would be more open to adopting KM as part of the training curriculm if scenario training was highlighted. This could help dismiss some of the confusion or myths that KM is all about punching and kicking and that it is in fact a great learning tool for LE Personal. Oh well, all in due time I suppose 🙂
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