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I just finished a Series 1 & 3 class with Stef Theodore at the Yarmouth, MA police department – great class, great instructor! One topic that we discussed was the kind of attacks that officers are encountering lately. The group consensus was that the current trend is for attackers to shoot in at the legs of the officers. We agreed that this is most likely a result of the advent of the UFC and the explosion in MMA training. The other thing that we talked about was the increased use of machetes in violent attacks.
Iím wondering what you folks are seeing / hearing about. My buddy Rick and I will be teaching our fellow officers in the very near future and we want to be able to keep them up to speed. Thanks in advance!
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Steve, Thank you for getting the ball rolling. I attempted to answer this earlier from my cellphone, however my BB seems to not care for the flash banner and it slows it down…
We have discussed the machete attacks a little here on the forums, I will have to do a little research and see if I can find it. We had two Deputies in Southern Oregon attacked, thankfully they were able to kill him- but not before he nearly hacked each of them to death. It is a favorite weapon of organized crime and it is trickling into the tool boxes of mainstream offenders. We have several attacks a year here in Oregon, mainly rural areas. I have heard Jon Pascal address this issue before when teaching blunt object defenses to drive home the bursting inside the weapon.
Now to address the issue of attacks to the legs, as MMA has grown so has American Wrestling. We have a former collegiate wrestler that is a complete dirtbag in this area. He fights every single time he is encountered and does so with takedowns. This is a HUGE problem throughout LE.
My Krav Maga LEO’s do takedown defenses as part of their groundwork. Period. The best way to beat a wrestler, is to know how they do the takedowns (the necessary steps) and how to “mess up” their steps. Oneness has been working with myself and Jon to tweak the ground work to better suit the current trends. I will keep you guys updated.
Now all of this leads me to a small tangent…We can not change, modify or update Force Training curriculum without everyone’s insight into daily operations. Please, don’t just “lurk” on the forum waiting for somebody else to post. Please become an active participant in this community. We so seldom have somebody in our profession actually ask and care about what we think… here’s your chance to effect a change or have input.
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
I personally do not have enough data to form any conclusions on specific methods or types of attacks on LEOs. I DO believe, however, that criminals today are much more brazen and willing to take a shot at us (ranging from sucking teeth/mouthing off to evading/fleeing to attacking/fighting/attempting to seriously hurt/kill, etc) and there are more and more of these types of incidents happening all over the US.
Knock on wood, we haven’t had very many run ins with MMA trained BGs. We know they are out there because we’ve seen them working out in MMA gyms and have even had a few as classmates – even some better known MMA fighters have been “guests/clients” in our jail facilities.
As far as machetes/knives attacks/crimes go, I believe a big part of that is due to the influx of immigrants from other countries. The US is a “gun culture”, many South American or Asian/Southeast Asian countries are “blade cultures” and many of those people wouldn’t think twice about picking up a blade, even a big one, and swinging away with it.
If someone was looking to do serious research into this area – I would definitely contact Darren (Levine), he is The Man. IIRC, he is the lead deputy district attorney in the LA County CAPOS unit (crimes against peace officers) and is very much the SME for this topic!
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Thanks to both of you for that. Yes, if Darren could weigh in on this issue we’d be getting some great info!
The machete thing is cultural, no doubt. We have a lot of folk here from El Salvador where the machete seems to be a mainstay. Also, many of these people (the vast majority of whom are fine, family-oriented folk, btw) do landscaping, so having edged weapons in their vehicle is not out of the norm. Having those tools in the pocket of the driver’s door, however, is a slightly different deal.
We’re starting to see more of the serious felons coming to the island than we ever did in the past. These are the “not going back to jail” types. My doggie fight guy was one, as was the killer in our recent stabbing murder. One topic we’ll be teaching is how to hone our dirtbag recognition skills.
Please post about this, folks. Here’s our chance to keep our fellow officers (and ourselves, of course!) safer.
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Wrto Darren weighing in – I think this topic may be too lengthy/deep to go into here online (give him a call or shoot him an email). In addition to everything KM, Darren also gives a really great presentation on crimes against peace officers and, if he is ever in any of your LE neighborhoods, ask him if he has time to talk about his unit and review some of the high profile incidents we’ve had around here (basically give his presentation)…
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Please please post here… we need to be talking about it. I am interested in common threats through out agencies that the line staff is seeing. Darren is so busy also. He will hopefully weigh in when he gets time. But this is exactly what I want to hear. I am looking for info from the guys on patrol and from the guys in corrections.
I just worry that its only going to be us 3 on here posting… lol.
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Give you a brief run-down of an incident that just took place a couple of mornings ago at my station – BG vs 3 deputies. Unfortunately it was on AM shift on one of my days off and I don’t have all the details because I haven’t had a chance to talk to the deputies involved.
911 call comes in – male Hispanic, possibly 11550 (under the influence of drugs), possibly 5150 (crazy), running around the neighborhood yelling and screaming. BG lives at a house in the neighborhood and is not a usual suspect (but that info is not known at the time of the call). As units start rolling, the call gets updated.
BG goes to a neighbor’s house and tries to kick the front door in – yelling that he is going to kill the neighbor and everyone in the house (that neighbor is on the phone with our desk/dispatch via 911). BG then runs across the street and begins breaking EVERY exterior window around another neighbor’s house with a front yard chair, yelling that he is going to rape the sole female living at that house (who is home and screaming into 911, connected to our desk/dispatch).
Right before the units arrive, the BG runs back across the street and disappears into a side yard, possibly at his home. BTW, the BG was “nothing special” – around 5′-7″ ish, stocky/beefy build.
So, three single man units arrive in the neighborhood and are trying to figure out the cluster that is going on. One deputy is half a block down detaining another male Hispanic who kinda fit the description of the BG and the other two are trying to calm the hysterical woman down in front of her house.
2 of the deputies are smaller (5′-6″/5′-7″ about 150-160 or so) and on the “younger” side, 1 deputy is bigger (6′-3″ about 240) but on the “older” side and has bad knees. None of them have any substantial DT/MA training.
Suddenly, the BG re-emerges from across the street and, yelling at the top of his lungs that he is going to kill the woman, starts running at full speed towards the deputies and woman (no visible weapons in BG’s hands). Bigger deputy moves to intercept BG and tries to grab him as he’s running by. BG turns and sucker punches the deputy, knocking him down and just about out. BG continues on and now the fight’s on with deputy 2. Deputy 3, sees this from a house or two away and runs to help deputy 2, who is actually deputy 3’s brother.
BG and deputies 2 & 3 end up in a “FUT” (Southnarc’s “fuc&ed up tangle”) on the ground. During the melee, BG tries getting deputy 2’s weapon out – comes 3/4 of the way out of the holster. Deputy 1 staggers over to the pile and starts whaling away at the BG with his fists. Fortunately, the 3 are able to subdue the BG just as assisting units arrive.
Deputy 1 exacerbated his knee problems (from college football when he was younger) and is now on crutches – rumor is he will be unable to continue wearing the uniform (medically retiring). Deputy 2 either fractured or severely sprained his wrist and received several bites on his arm from the BG (broke skin but no avulsions). Deputy 3 received minor cuts and bruises.
Worst part is BG, who went to the hospital, only ended up with minor abrasions and bruises. Toxicology report has not come back so I don’t know what his major malfunction was.
I wasn’t there and I haven’t debriefed the deputies so I can’t say what, if anything, they could have done different or better. I will say, however, that IMNSHO, ANY time a BG goes for an LEO’s gun – he/she should be dead. Even if I am able to win the fight against a BG intent on killing me, chances are he is going to try again and, the next time, one of my fellow brothers or sisters may not be as fortunate or as skilled/able as me.
Some lessons/principles I try to impart to my students/partners during DT training (including weapon retention on the ground):
BG goes for your gun – green light time – kill the POS any way you can. Know how to perform weapon retention techniques. Practice deploying secondary weapons (back up gun, knives, pens, etc). If you have partners there, let them know the BG is going for your gun – that gives your partners the green light to end the BG.
If you don’t shout it out, your partner, who might be on the opposite side or otherwise pre-occupied, might not know. Same goes for biting. In my book, biting – possibly resulting in an avulsion or amputation – IS serious bodily injury (meeting my criteria for deadly force).
If you are in the mix and are NOT the deputy fighting for his gun – kill the POS BG ASAP! Don’t be nice, your partner may not be able to afford you being nice. If you shoot the BG, angle it so your partner is not in the background and be aware of any contact shot/out of battery type potential problems with your weapon. Knife to the throat, flashlight to the windpipe, baton/flashlight to the temple areas or base of the skull, etal.
If a BG fights (period) with LE – do NOT put the handcuffs on too quickly! If a BG fights with LE, I’m not putting on any kind of restraints until he is rendered unconscious or unable to move on his own volition – i.e. no longer a threat.
Every call you respond to, every contact you make – THIS is the one where I’m going to have to fight for my life and kill this motherfuc&er…
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Well Mr. Don I agree with your statement 100%. As for myself I work in a Max Security(level 3&4) CA State Prison and we have those type of incidents all the time. Alot of people always wonder why alot of LEO get punched out (knock out) when they have weapons on there belts and partners with them. :box2:
Well, I am guessing it has to do with LACK of training. Most LEO’s are always trying to use as less force as possible due to being scared of getting sued or getting fired, which I disagree with completely. The most important thing is going home at the end of your shift. Some of us LEO’s are good at figuring out when talking is gonna get nowhere at which time you have to spring into action before the BG does.
To LEO’s out there know your use of force policies and practice your writing skills and DONT BE SCARED TO USE FORCE – DEADLY FORCE IF NEEDED.
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
I think alot of it is communication. When you have a bunch of equipment and your best friends working with you, you do not need to rely on communication as heavily as if you work by yourself or are vastly outnumbered in the yard…
Not to mention, they don’t want to go back at all cost. If they kick our ass on the street they may get away scott free, if they kick your ass in the bucket- they risk losing what little they have left for “luxary items” and have no where to go…
The best communicators I have ever worked with are female officers and officers who were in corrections…
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Yeah not to mention when you get into an incident with a bad guy in prison he normally has about 100+ of his buddies standing by incase he needs help.
At the pen I work at it is built to hold about 2500 inmates and we currently house 4700+ inmates. It gets pretty crazy in there. There are tons of incidents everyday people (public) just dont hear about them.
If we could only set up cameras and charge people to watch we would make millions.
Streets and Prison totally different animals both very dangerous in its on way. Somebody has to do it. Be safe out there street cops you are appreciated.
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
I’ve worked Custody too with the worst of the worst in LA County (MCJ, 7700+ at the time) so I definitely know where you’re coming from.
We have to remember that assaulting peace officers gives scumbags rep points and juice and killing a peace officer is basically the highest merit badge they can get… :banghead:
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Good times… I wish the public could really understand what LEO’s face everyday. Then I think use of force issues would not be frowned upon. Another good reason to really support your local citizen’s police academy. If your agency does not have one, then help to start one. Let them try to shoot a paper target person in the leg under stress… then they understand. I have seen people that are against LE go through the training and come out BIG advocates for LEO’s and a new respect for the job.
Can you tell me some of the most common attacks and use of force situations you guys have encountered in a correctional setting?
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Kirsten, definitely agree. We don’t always have time to explain our actions – when I have time, I try to make the effort to do so. Most of the time, people will understand; sometimes their so-called minds are already made up and they don’t want to understand. Scumbags and their friends will always be anti-LE. It’s the otherwise “normal/everyday” people out there who are semi anti-LE who might change their mind if they could walk a few steps in our shoes. Unfortunately, it seems like there are too many ignorant, liberal, bleeding heart, ivory tower dwelling, easily influenced by the media types of people out there who don’t give us the support we should be getting…
In a custodial setting, attacks can (and have) range from drunken/high inmates (or just straight adam henries) not going along with the program and wanting to throw down with officers (or simple spitting, gassing, and/or throwing other objects/etc); to inmate vs staff riots; to assaulting during escape attempts; to taking hostages; to straight out planned ambushes to hit a particular officer or the officer on duty, etal.
They can be from a single inmate to a pair to a multi-man cell to a row/tier/pod/module/yard full of inmates, etc. Sometimes the attacks are orchestrated/planned/rehearsed, sometimes it’s a matter of “luck” or opportunity.
Uses of force, OTOH, may or may not involve attacks or assaults per se by the inmates. We also use force against individuals up to large groups/numbers to gain compliance or quell disturbances or to enforce jail rules/penal code, etc.
Sorry to not give you specifics but guys/gals working custody/corrections can see/experience just about every type of assault/attack and use just about every type of force while we/they are “babysitting” ;):
Re: Trends in attacks vs. LEO
Excellent insight and it was what I was looking for. I will be down there in June and I seriously hope we get a chance to talk.
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