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Well being a LEO I could work with the techniques shown in the video. One thing you guys have to remember is that when you are training in a LEO environment its not always about just saving your life but the innocent lives around you. For example when the guy had the gun pointed at his stomach area the key is to point the gun at a safe location to prevent your partner or a onlooker of being shot, so he made sure the gun pointed towards the ground. The gun pointed to the head if you push up there is less chance of someone getting shot standing beside or behind you and when the people behind you hear the shot they will usually head for cover having a few more seconds to do so.
Another thing everyone needs to remember is that when LEO’s learn Krav it HAS to be POST certified by their Dept. In other words it might be modified a little to prevent lawsuits. BUT in a life or death situation you have to do what you have to do, going home is the #1 goal.
Re: LE Video
quote Jrodf4:Another thing everyone needs to remember is that when LEO’s learn Krav it HAS to be POST certified by their Dept. In other words it might be modified a little to prevent lawsuits. BUT in a life or death situation you have to do what you have to do, going home is the #1 goal.Just out of curiosity why does it have to be police officers standards and training certified to be valid? POST is only a CA governing body.
The techniques donít change and POST doesnít review the curriculum. I know they may audit courses but they donít regulate the material.
Re: LE Video
quote Jrodf4:Well being a LEO I could work with the techniques shown in the video. One thing you guys have to remember is that when you are training in a LEO environment its not always about just saving your life but the innocent lives around you. For example when the guy had the gun pointed at his stomach area the key is to point the gun at a safe location to prevent your partner or a onlooker of being shot, so he made sure the gun pointed towards the ground. The gun pointed to the head if you push up there is less chance of someone getting shot standing beside or behind you and when the people behind you hear the shot they will usually head for cover having a few more seconds to do so.Another thing everyone needs to remember is that when LEO’s learn Krav it HAS to be POST certified by their Dept. In other words it might be modified a little to prevent lawsuits. BUT in a life or death situation you have to do what you have to do, going home is the #1 goal.
Not exactly sure what “POST certified by their Dept.” means. Perhaps Jrod is saying that LE defensive tactics have to be from a POST certified curriculum specifically adopted/approved by a LE agency? If so, that may be true for Jrod’s department/agency but it is NOT a universal truth. It will depend upon an individual agency’s use of force policy(ies).
Unfortunately, there are agencies out there that restrict allowable self defense/defensive tactics techniques to only what was shown/taught during department training or only those techniques from a certain “school/style”.
Those agencies/departments with a more progressive policy often do not place such severe restrictions on their members. I personally can go out and learn whatever I want. As long as what I learn and use falls within some loose(r) guidelines set by my department, I’m good to go.
For example, if I’m allowed to use “personal weapons” (i.e. punches, kicks, elbows, knees, head butts, etc) and choose to kick the BG, it doesn’t matter if I use a TMA front snap kick, a JKD/wing chun low stop or oblique kick, a muay thai round kick, a KM a-frame kick, or CJ Dad’s flying monkey kick (assuming he ever lets me in on the secret technique), it’s all good. For me, it doesn’t have to be POST certified or be from this or that curriculum or school/style…
Re: LE Video
Hey Don aren’t you a POST certified defensive tactics instructor by the state of Ca. j/k LOL
Re: LE Video
quote Don:Not exactly sure what “POST certified by their Dept.” means. Perhaps Jrod is saying that LE defensive tactics have to be from a POST certified curriculum specifically adopted/approved by a LE agency? If so, that may be true for Jrod’s department/agency but it is NOT a universal truth. It will depend upon an individual agency’s use of force policy(ies).Unfortunately, there are agencies out there that restrict allowable self defense/defensive tactics techniques to only what was shown/taught during department training or only those techniques from a certain “school/style”.
Those agencies/departments with a more progressive policy often do not place such severe restrictions on their members. I personally can go out and learn whatever I want. As long as what I learn and use falls within some loose(r) guidelines set by my department, I’m good to go.
For example, if I’m allowed to use “personal weapons” (i.e. punches, kicks, elbows, knees, head butts, etc) and choose to kick the BG, it doesn’t matter if I use a TMA front snap kick, a JKD/wing chun low stop or oblique kick, a muay thai round kick, a KM a-frame kick, or CJ Dad’s flying monkey kick (assuming he ever lets me in on the secret technique), it’s all good. For me, it doesn’t have to be POST certified or be from this or that curriculum or school/style…
Ok I am back for a few minutes – Man I wish you guys would see what type of vanilla defense tactics they show at the California Dept of Corrections Academy – I hate to say it but when you do not use specific tactics shown at the academy you are open for law suits unless it is a “I feared for my safety (situation) & did not have time to get to my state issued weapons” it is a very touchy subject in our Dept at least. :thunbsdown:
I do train Krav as a civilian and Love it – Is there any POST certified instructors in these forums that could get in to detail regarding this subject – BUT I know that since Krav Worldwide got POST certified to train law enforcement I would be extremely surprise if it is not modified – what I mean by modified is no groin kicks, finger in the eyes etc etc.. unless like I mentioned earlier life or death situation..
Re: LE Video
Yes there are several, but its up to them to disclose that information since this is the public section.
Where in CA do you train can I ask, I know a ton of corrections folks.
Re: LE Video
quote CJs Dad:Damn and I could swear you passed the test.Ohhh, was THAT what it was! I thought you were just trying to see how many of us were going to throw up… ;):
Re: LE Video
quote Jrodf4:Ok I am back for a few minutes – Man I wish you guys would see what type of vanilla defense tactics they show at the California Dept of Corrections AcademyWhere is your academy located? Maybe you could try to arrange a KM demonstration for your powers that be – either to replace or supplement your current DT program…
– I hate to say it but when you do not use specific tactics shown at the academy you are open for law suits unless it is a “I feared for my safety (situation) & did not have time to get to my state issued weapons” it is a very touchy subject in our Dept at least. :thunbsdown:
Sorry to hear that you are restricted to those techniques taught within your own agency! Does it specifically state in your policy/procedures manual that only those techniques taught in the academy or during department training shall be used – or is that just the general Perception?
I do train Krav as a civilian and Love it – Is there any POST certified instructors in these forums that could get in to detail regarding this subject – BUT I know that since Krav Worldwide got POST certified to train law enforcement I would be extremely surprise if it is not modified – what I mean by modified is no groin kicks, finger in the eyes etc etc.. unless like I mentioned earlier life or death situation..
What do you want to know about the subject, and which subject exactly are we talking about? I have only been exposed to KM as taught to LE. I don’t know what KM looks like when taught to non-LE or military. Groin kicks and fingers in eyes were definitely included in our curriculum (but flying monkey kicks were not – dammit :angry: ) lol
There is nothing wrong with teaching/learning/using groin kicks, eye gouges, biting, hair/ear pulling, fish hooks, groin grabs, throat strikes, or any other of your favorite dirty fighting techniques. Per Graham vs Connor, the force we (LE) use must be objectively reasonable. So, maybe I won’t eye gouge some idiot protester for saying “hell no we won’t go” and refusing to move.
OTOH, in a “life threatening” / “serious bodily injury” type of situation, ANYTHING goes – Dead is Dead. Btw, I can kick to the groin WAY before a situation reaches a deadly force level.
In my POST certification class, there were participants from maybe 6-10 different agencies, each with their own force policies. The carotid restraint/LVNR is part of the curriculum. Some agencies can only use it in a deadly force type of situation. Some agencies, like mine, can use it in a “high risk” and/or “assaultive” type of situation (“less” than deadly force – same level as punching/kicking someone).
KMWW teaches a standardized (POST certified) curriculum – it’s up to the individuals using or teaching it to apply the techniques within their respective guidelines.
Re: LE Video
quote Don:What do you want to know about the subject, and which subject exactly are we talking about? I have only been exposed to KM as taught to LE. I don’t know what KM looks like when taught to non-LE or military. Groin kicks and fingers in eyes were definitely included in our curriculum (but flying monkey kicks were not – dammit :angry: ) lolThere is nothing wrong with teaching/learning/using groin kicks, eye gouges, biting, hair/ear pulling, fish hooks, groin grabs, throat strikes, or any other of your favorite dirty fighting techniques. Per Graham vs Connor, the force we (LE) use must be objectively reasonable. So, maybe I won’t eye gouge some idiot protester for saying “hell no we won’t go” and refusing to move.
OTOH, in a “life threatening” / “serious bodily injury” type of situation, ANYTHING goes – Dead is Dead. Btw, I can kick to the groin WAY before a situation reaches a deadly force level.
In my POST certification class, there were participants from maybe 6-10 different agencies, each with their own force policies. The carotid restraint/LVNR is part of the curriculum. Some agencies can only use it in a deadly force type of situation. Some agencies, like mine, can use it in a “high risk” and/or “assaultive” type of situation (“less” than deadly force – same level as punching/kicking someone).
KMWW teaches a standardized (POST certified) curriculum – it’s up to the individuals using or teaching it to apply the techniques within their respective guidelines.
+1
Use of Force is a touchy subject at the agency I work for – I am well informed regarding the Do’s and Don’ts of the Use of Force policy. I am extremely excited that LEO’s are praticing Krav per their Agencies. I hope it reaches our Agency soon. It usually takes a while for the State to change things up regarding State Corrections defense tactics since there are 30000+ officers state wide. I will most definately put a bug in there ear though.
We sure could use more training on knife/stick defese thumbsup.
Hey guys be safe out there..
Re: LE Video
Instructor Don & Instructor CJ
Nobody is questioning your knowledge in Krav or Post Cert Krav intructor knowledge or do you teach Krav different to LE or civilian. I commented on the issue from experiences (incidents I have been in) in use of force situations regarding my agency. I have seen people get fired for stuff that upper Admin thought was excessive force (which is questionable by officers when some upper Admin making these decisions have no LE experience) :dunno:. I am only a level 2 student in Krav and cant wait to go to test for level 3. I do have about 14 yrs of other experience which made the transition to Krav easier. May be one day I will be a POST certified instructor and teach new recruits Krav tactics.
I know our policies and procedures very well and also know great judgement when using any type of force (go hard and end the threat quick)thumbsup. Common sense will get you far in a LE environment. I cant get into policy talk since this a public forum plus I dont like thinking about work when I am off duty. We both know policies are a little different agency to agency. Hopefully one day you will come train us down here at our agency. Keep up the good work guys and stay humble.
Re: LE Video
quote Jrodf4:Instructor Don & Instructor CJNobody is questioning your knowledge in Krav or Post Cert Krav intructor knowledge or do you teach Krav different to LE or civilian. I commented on the issue from experiences (incidents I have been in) in use of force situations regarding my agency. I have seen people get fired for stuff that upper Admin thought was excessive force (which is questionable by officers when some upper Admin making these decisions have no LE experience) :dunno:. I am only a level 2 student in Krav and cant wait to go to test for level 3. I do have about 14 yrs of other experience which made the transition to Krav easier. May be one day I will be a POST certified instructor and teach new recruits Krav tactics.
I know our policies and procedures very well and also know great judgement when using any type of force (go hard and end the threat quick)thumbsup. Common sense will get you far in a LE environment. I cant get into policy talk since this a public forum plus I dont like thinking about work when I am off duty. We both know policies are a little different agency to agency. Hopefully one day you will come train us down here at our agency. Keep up the good work guys and stay humble.
I feel your pain bro. I don’t want to get into a rant about certain things that bother me about my department because it wouldn’t be very hard to track me down.
There are quite a few supervisors out there who are NOT subject matter experts on use of force. I would try to make sure you have Force Instructors or use of force SME people, union leaders/lawyers, legal assistance, etal handy/available for those times when your force is good but your brass doesn’t believe it or refuses to see it that way…
I have been assisting with and teaching use of force and defensive tactics on my department for about 8 1/2 years now. I teach that there are three phases/elements to using force – 1. you have to know what you can do (allowed/permitted to do), 2. you have to be physically and mentally able to win the fight, and 3. you have to be able to clearly explain what you did and why.
In my experience, the vast majority of problems with uses of force were related to the Articulation of the force and not the force itself. I worked a stint (several years in the training unit) in our Men’s Central Jail (inmates equivalent to 3 state prisons with 1/3 the staffing) – not ONCE during my time there did a force report come across my desk (or the desks of my partners, who were also force instructors) for input/review. During that same time, quite a few people got into some type of force-related hot water. Tell your partners, if you have resources, use them!
Keep up the training and don’t forget to share that knowledge with your partners! thumbsup
Re: Use of Force Discussion (moved from public forum)
Don, well put.
In Oregon if your justified in your use of force, you use the appropriate level, then your golden. The delivery method is of no importance. We are in the 9th circuit court same as California too.
Great comments guys… I like the LE discussions. Please keep them coming. Sean thanks for moving this too.
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