Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 19 total)
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  • #32211
    co611
    Member

    trying to update our water safety/survival class and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to a company or individual who provides training. I’m primarily looking into areas such as confrontations around water, going into the water and actual assaults in the water. currently we utilize Redman training but are looking to revise the training.

    I attempted to get assistance from KMSD (ikmf) who advertise a “in-water krav” class, but instead of a little professional courtesy got brushed off with sarcasm and arrogance.

    any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

    dave

    #76670
    don
    Member

    Re: water training

    Off the top of my head, I don’t know any. I will check with some of my partners in our special units.

    In what kinds of bodies of water do you foresee fights or arrests taking place?

    #76676

    Re: water training

    I don’t know any either, but my Lt’s husband is in charge of our Tactical Waterborne Team, I’ll ask him.

    #76682
    cjs-dad
    Keymaster

    Re: water training

    I bet the SaMo guys would know, I know they surf train.

    #76689
    co611
    Member

    Re: water training

    i appreciate it, we patrol all the waterways in the state so it could be anything ranging from a small county lake to the Ohio/Mississippi rivers. And my focus is primarily on the confrontations not swift or cold water rescues.

    dave

    #76690
    kirsten
    Moderator

    Re: water training

    Hmmm… I was assuming you wanted tactics for underwater survial, like engaging a suspect UNDER water, ie spec op’s BUDS type training.

    It sounds like what you are doing is more marine patrol. I am not sure that the defensive tactics training would change much, unless you were dumped into the water specifically and needed to worry about currents. Is that more what you are thinking? A swimming based class and not a defensive tactics class? If its more about the swimming I would check with a local dive shop and ask them.

    If your thinking about defensive tactics for the possiblity that your in the water for whatever reason and fighting, then I would consider how that changes your fight dynamic and how it will IMO escalate the level of force your are going to respond with and how given the weapon issue. The techniques will only need some modification depending on each situation, like knees and not kicks. All things that Krav Maga, as a principle based system, allow you to make on your own.

    Please let us know if you find anything. I think you have peaked our interest.

    #76695
    co611
    Member

    Re: water training

    tactics for being engaged underwater would be good. Here is my dilemma, in order for our classes to be certified through our law enforcement council you have to be certified in that area. And yes I can develop my own based on my krav certifications but i need to address areas such as tactical entries (solo or engaged), weapon retention in holster. It still could be taught to our recruits but wouldn’t have the approval and backing that would be needed if challenged.

    Redman Inc. advertises its Water Safety Survival class as the only one of its kind in the US, and it appears they not kidding. I have been signed up for the past 2 years and they have canceled every class due to lack of participation.

    We use Redman training right now but our lead instructor has been promoted and his ability to teach in the future will be limited.

    Long story short, don’t want to implement a training program without certification.

    thanks again

    dave

    #76699
    don
    Member

    Re: water training

    Off the top of my head, it would seem like time would be on our side. We can afford to wait the BG out, possibly deploy some of our less lethal weapons, etc. If we have to make entry into the water, my immediate concerns would be drowning or hostage (we wouldn’t enter if we believe the BG to be armed). We would be wearing minimal gear for weight and weapon retention purposes. Then, it would be a team takedown/swarm type of encounter. If so, I think it would be fun to take a group of guys to the pool and let a role playing BG fight it out with an arrest team of 4-5 guys. You can test out a lot of different techniques on both sides.

    The only time I think we would need to make immediate “entry” would be a hostage rescue type situation. I’ll try to find the video where some officers have to go out into a swamp by boat to save a toddler being drowned by a 5150 (crazy, psycho) BG – possibly the dad.

    We had a situation not too long ago here. BG, gang banger, high on meth and a little 5150, ran into a back yard and took refuge in a pool – no visible weapons, he was in shorts and tennis shoes. We had Tasers, pepperball guns, 37mm baton launchers, fire department, and numerous deputy personnel there (I was a 37mm gun but I wanted to be an arrest team guy). We had 4 deputies strip down to tshirts, pants, and socks, ready to go in and get the guy.

    We thought about Tasing but wasn’t sure how the water would affect the charge/current. My shot wasn’t very good because my aimpoint is supposed to be waist/below and, for the most part, it was only his head and upper body out of the water. We even thought about using the fire department to suck out all the water in the pool.

    Finally, after waiting for the idiot all afternoon, the LT on scene made a command decision. We all surrounded the pool and deployed Freeze +P (OC/CS) at the BG – hitting him whenever he came up for air. Fortunately, it worked and he gave up. I was surprised at how well the Freeze stuck to him, even when he would go under and try to wash it off!

    http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=1256266

    #76706
    kirsten
    Moderator

    Re: water training

    Good story Don, Love the Freeze+P!! Best OC ever made. 🙂

    You can deploy a Taser in water and it will not shock the surrounding people, only the person the probes hit (just for future reference). It has been deployed in several water situations with officers in the water with the suspect. However drowning the suspect is a primary concern if deployed, so officers need to be hands on the suspect asap to prevent this. But like you said, finding a good shot placement is almost impossible when they are in 5 feet of water…

    All of our pools up here are kiddie or above ground pools… So I was picturing him in one of those and thinking (just pop it or put a hole in it and watch him wash out) lol… but in CA you guys have “real” pools!

    #76732
    don
    Member

    Re: water training

    A bunch of years back, when I was working Custody, we had a cell extraction with a Taser deployment – we actually had quite a few but this one was different in that the POS had flooded his cell (3-4 inches of water all around) and was Tased (probes into body) after being taken down to the ground by the extraction team.

    Unfortunately, the entire team also felt the effects of the Taser. The guys were on different parts of the BG so I know that not every one of them could have been contacting between the probes. What I think MIGHT have happened was that either one or both of the probes ended up under water OR maybe it was due to the wires arcing into the water. (some of the older/est Taser cartridges, yellow, yellow/black, used to exhibit arcing between the wires and the ground – even when the probes were shot into a target propped up on a chair).

    I never got around to trying to recreate the conditions of that incident but I’ve been itching to do some pool testing – e.g. dropping probes into one end of a pool, activating, and testing the water on the other end for any effects…

    Btw, maybe a year or two prior to that incident, one of my buddies was possibly The First person to discover that Taser cartridges could be accidentally discharged via static electricity – he was holding a Taser cartridge in his hand (not attached to a gun) and touched a metal door frame. The cartridge went off and buried the probes into bone. Ouch!

    #76733

    Re: water training

    Hi Dave,

    My name is Chris Masaoka and I’m a civillian Force Training instructor from the Seattle area. Among our training partners are a number of Navy SEALs who have extensive training in this area. I breached this subject with them and they were interested. (tell you the truth I’m interested too) Feel free to PM me and I can hook you guys up. Look forward to meeting you.

    Chris

    #76738
    kirsten
    Moderator

    Re: water training

    Wow Don, that’s crazy! I hope you guys turned in a Taser use of force form to them for that incident. They have had it deployed in water before and it hasn’t done that. They are always looking for reports like that to improve the product and figure out if it was a weapon issue, deployment, etc. I am glad it was only a minor current as opposed to a full ride.. I would have been fired up. lol

    Are you going to be around in Sept for the civilian force certification?

    #76742
    don
    Member

    Re: water training

    Kirsten, the team Did feel the full effects – or at least that’s what they said… I don’t remember whether or not the incident was forwarded to Taser or not – I was not a Taser instructor back then…

    I should be around in Sept – would love to help out, participate, hang out, whatever. I’ll check with Jon or Sean…

    #76922
    co611
    Member

    Re: water training

    thanks for the suggestions, I did final find what seems to be exactly what i was looking for. http://www.scpsdi.net has a water survival class. Have had several communications with them and am now in the process of sending information up the chain of command.

    If you ever get the chance to do any water dt in full gear i would highly recommend it.
    It is an eye opening experience and will change your outlook on working around water.

    dave

    #77648
    kirsten
    Moderator

    Re: water training

    I have some contact info for the Clackamas OR, S.O. They have a water DT course. I met Mitch while up there teaching with Jon last week. He is going to be applying alot of the KM to his course. He is a certified Force Instructor. I told him about this thread and he gave me a business card. Here is his email: [email protected]

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