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Re: what do you like in a KM class??
Although the class kick my as$, I was impressed with how much sense everything made. I enjoyed the techniques and the drills, I knew I needed to get in better shape since I was close to 300lbs, but the friendliness of everyone in the class was what really impressed me. I convinced the instructor to let me sign a contract so I wouldn’t be able to back out even though he isn’t in favor of contracts.
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote DirtyHippieUte:Absolutely. In my opinion, people abandon personal responsibility ’round about the same time they stop thinking, working, and providing for themselves.My point about Americans thinking they are tough is this: A guy goes to REI.com and buys a $500 jacket and he has allowed the marketing dept to convince him that he could climb Mt. Everest if he wanted. The same guy gets up on Saturday, puts on a pair of Carhart overalls and drives to the Home Depot so he can feel like he’s some craftsman or contractor. Later that day he goes to the gym and takes a spin class and now he’s ready for the Tour de France.
We kid ourselves into thinking that we’re accomplishing so much when all we’re really doing is getting the instant microwave-oven version of life. This is why the McDojo survives. Our hero from above wants to feel like he’s tough. So he goes to 3 classes a week, yells “hi-ya” a lot, and reads up on martial arts history on Wikipedia. Now he’s got everything he needs to tell people he’s “into martial arts.”
People aren’t willing to dig in and actually master things anymore. They don’t want to get dirty. They don’t want to be put out. They don’t care enough, don’t have the attention span, and don’t have the work ethic. So they settle and allow marketing to convince them that they’re actually getting substance.
I saw a good example of this when I was sitting on the side of a mountain outside of Salt Lake City. It was early February so the mountain was covered in snow, the route was icy, and the trail was hard to follow.
Two guys in at least $2,000 worth of gear caught up with me as I stopped to pick clumps of snow out from between my dog’s paws (they get big and make it hard for him to walk). They were commenting on the “extreme” conditions and how cool it was to be “out there” doing stuff that was “on the edge.”
They let me know what the exact altitude was and that they were sure we were on the right route because their GPS said so. They warned me about sun exposure at “high altitude” and assured me that avalanche conditions were safe because they looked them up that morning on the internet.
About two minutes into our conversation another man caught up to us. He was over 60 yrs old, dressed in about $50 worth of “old school” wool gear, using a 30 yr old pair of snow shoes, and moving at a pace that I don’t think my dog could keep up. He had no gore-tex coat, no GPS, no titanium trekking poles, and no camera to document his legendary climb.
He stopped to chat for a minute and made small talk as he took a water break. I just about laughed out loud at when I saw the faces of the two guys as they realized that their “extreme adventure” was nothing more than an easy morning stroll for an old man who does this stuff all the time.
Somehow they honestly believed their one or two Saturday mornings a month made them extreme mountaineers. This is the kind of thing that undermines the strength of America. This is why Americans are getting weaker. This is why people wouldn’t take KM classes if they thought they were actually going to have to get hit.
It’s not just here, I’ve been all over the world and seen it in lot’s of places. But I tell you what, seeing some of these new Police recruits come through the Academy after combat tours overseas is making me a little more optimistic that the 10% is alive and well. It’s just the other 90% that bum me out sometimes……….
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
1. We have 1-hr classes. I think 1hr 15 min would be better so that more thorough warm-up/stretching can be done still leaving enough time for skills/practice.
2. I like to end each class with some fitness exercise (abs/core/pushups/etc) followed by light stretching (no more than 10 min). Sometimes we do exactly that, but not consistently.
3. I like “man in the middle” exercises where one or several persons are standing in the middle of the room with eyes closed and are attacked by others who are walking about. The attacks cand be anything: chokes, head grabs, bear hugs, knife/gun.
4. I like working in groups of three when one is constantly attacked by the other two in close succession; i.e. immediately as one attacker is repulsed/defeated/disarmed – the second attacks. Good stress training.
5. We don’t have it, but I’d like the full force “Red Man” fighting: when someone dressed in heavy protection gear attacks for real and can be hit in the face (big helmet with neck protection) the knees/legs, groin. I don’t mean the “Red Man” hits with full force. I mean he attacks with choke/bear hug/head grab/stick/knife/gun and defender can go full force without pulling punches. For small schools like ours it is hard to justfy the expensive equipment, but one can dream
. The benefits of such realistic simulation can be tremendous (imo).
6. I like fitness classes: combos of Bas tapes/bag/focus mitts work, dumbbells/kettlebells.Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote Jeremy Stafford:It’s not just here, I’ve been all over the world and seen it in lot’s of places. But I tell you what, seeing some of these new Police recruits come through the Academy after combat tours overseas is making me a little more optimistic that the 10% is alive and well. It’s just the other 90% that bum me out sometimes……….That’s good to hear. I’m not surprised though. I find that distribution of “the 10%” is much higher in careers where the goal is to serve the public. Service (to God, Country, or Comrade) breeds selflessness. Selflessness and personal accountability go hand in hand.
If you want to meet the 90% come and visit me. I’m currently surrounded by college and graduate students. I’ve never seen so many people with an overdeveloped sense of self entitlement and a false sense of self importance.
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
I couldn’t do it…..That’s why I’ll probably never finish my degree even though I’m only 18 units away. I admire your patience, though!
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote Satilan:I feel that a lot of what is missing from the classes I take is:– DISCLAIMER: I did see a some of the following in some classes, but it’s not practiced enough, IMO. And, I do like my gym. This is just what I would like the my gym to be like in an ideal situation…
REALISM
1. More free-style training – meaning, you study some techniques in class, and then, towards the end you get to apply them by combining what you studied with your own “style”: you and your partner/s spar it off, even if lightly.
2. More sparring – even for warm up. There’s too much shadowboxing! Shadowboxing is good to warm up but it’s even better if you do it by light-sparring with your partner. You don’t really need headgear or gloves… you just “tag” your opponent if he or she is open. I feel shadowboxing can strengthen incorrect techniques by allowing you to practice them without being “punished” for them. This is why people who take fight classes are so much better and realistic – they get conditioned as to what really works.
3. Personal space. I’ve seen a lot of students “stop and reposition” themselves b/c they fell/entered into an area occupied by other students during training… So what? This is realistic, the others should smile and move away… the thing is many people might get uncomfortable from the technique that got them to move into other students’ area, so they use the opportunity to excuse themselves, stop, and get out of that uncomfortable situation!!! On the street there is no “let’s stop for a minute coz I think we’re in their space” are you kidding me? I’m not preaching here for complete rampage across the mat. People should keep each other safe, but plz! Be realistic. (+ changing environments are good for training).TRAINING TECHNIQUES
4. Absorption – I don’t feel we work enough on absorption of blows. It is a crucial part to know how it feels to get hit/hurt and also know that it is completely okay and that you can still think clearly and react.
5. Aggression training – this can be achieved with more team play, e.g. two teams fighting each other for control of an area at the center of the mat – or, last man standing… or even “tournaments” where you kepep switching partners in some sort of cycle.
6. Ground fighting! Definitely not enough ground fighting!!! What happens in a spar is that sometimes you can take down your opponent… what’s next? you keep fighting… you either “attack” him or her by tagging light kicks to the head or whatever – or you dive in… the fight’s not over until one calls quits!
7. Separation of fighting from actual KM classes this is the BIG ONE. Why do they separate fight classes from ground fighting classes from regular krav classes? Is it a money issue? Is it more profitable to do so? Is it a legitation issue? Would the people studying KM prefer no to experience real fighting? Do they realize it’s futile to learn techniques about street defence without training in the situation? Fighting should be an integral part of regular KM classes – and if need be, these classes should be longer to accomodate that. If many people disdain from sparring, then a special “non fighting” class should be arranged for them.I hope this wasn’t too bad, altogether, I really like my gym.
P.S. When asked by a level 2 class instructor what we would like to do in class today, I said “let’s do knife or stick defence” His response was: “You are way over your head! That is like level 3 or 4!”. My response should have been: “So what?” But out of respect I apologized. Really guys? Stick and knife were taught to me in level 1 in a different gym…! They’re just really important.
A couple of things here……If you have the chance, you should check out Seans Fight class at 6:45 on Thursdays, he incorporates all of the things you’re talking about here. I don’t think too many other fight classes force you to remember entrances and exits as you’re being pummeled! It’s top notch training.
The thing about teaching Stick and Knife (as well as gun!) early is this, THEY BUILD ON THE BASICS THAT ARE TAUGHT IN THE LEVEL 1 AND 2 CURRICULUM!!!!!!! Why on earth should I waste a students time teaching them a weapons defense that relies on good bursts and strikes, when they do not yet have a good burst or strike! Basic weapons defenses should be introduced early in training to provide good context as to specific building block techniques (i/e bursting, strong 360’s, etc), and also to provide some good motivation, but to concentrate on these techniques early in a students training could negatively impact a students basic development (especially as most students are lucky to be able to train twice a week). If we were dealing with full training days over a period of a couple of weeks, it would be much easier to teach the Weapons stuff early, it’s just not feasable at 2 hours a week. Just my opinion though, and you know what they say about those……Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote Jeremy Stafford:A couple of things here……If you have the chance, you should check out Seans Fight class at 6:45 on Thursdays, he incorporates all of the things you’re talking about here. I don’t think too many other fight classes force you to remember entrances and exits as you’re being pummeled! It’s top notch training.Ditto!!! I was JUST going to suggest that – you really need to take Sean’s class. It meets all of your specifications – and it’s TONS of fun!!! thumbsup
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
So is level one Krav supposed to include weapons training and/or disarms?
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
No, weapons don’t start until Level 4. My center though has a Basic Weapons class that gets taught every so often. Anyone level 2 and up can take it.thumbsup
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote Satilan:REALISM
2. More sparring – even for warm up. There’s too much shadowboxing! Shadowboxing is good to warm up but it’s even better if you do it by light-sparring with your partner. You don’t really need headgear or gloves… you just “tag” your opponent if he or she is open. I feel shadowboxing can strengthen incorrect techniques by allowing you to practice them without being “punished” for them. This is why people who take fight classes are so much better and realistic – they get conditioned as to what really works.If you’re talking about a regular KM class and not a fight class then I have to disagree with you on this one. Shadow boxing is a really good exercise to help one improve his/her movement and technique without having to worry about getting hit or “tagged”. This is especially true in Level 1 classes where you have students who are not used to contact and may also not be ready for it. Shoulder tag may be a more appropriate exercise.
quote Satilan:TRAINING TECHNIQUES
4. Absorption – I don’t feel we work enough on absorption of blows. It is a crucial part to know how it feels to get hit/hurt and also know that it is completely okay and that you can still think clearly and react.Body conditioning is important, but it has to be introduced at the right class level. A new level 1 student should be focused on fighting stance, proper movement and techniques way before he/she is introduced to body conditioning. Learning to crawl before they walk IMO.
quote Satilan:7. Separation of fighting from actual KM classes this is the BIG ONE. Why do they separate fight classes from ground fighting classes from regular krav classes? Is it a money issue? Is it more profitable to do so? Is it a legitation issue? Would the people studying KM prefer no to experience real fighting? Do they realize it’s futile to learn techniques about street defence without training in the situation? Fighting should be an integral part of regular KM classes – and if need be, these classes should be longer to accomodate that. If many people disdain from sparring, then a special “non fighting” class should be arranged for them.I have to disagree with you on this one. Fight classes should absolutely be separate classes. There are alot of people who don’t like sparring and are not taking KM to learn to fight. This may be especially true for women who are less likely to get into street fights then men, but want and need to learn how to defend themselves against a male attacker.
I’m sure there are also some guys out there who don’t really like to spar for various reasons; maybe they have a hard time holding back and find that they just want to beat the crap out of their opponent (I know someone that has this problem), as a result, they find themselves being too passive. There are also some people who just don’t like to get hit. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t have access to the tools that KM offers or that they should have to spar to obtain them. BTW, the “non-fighting class” you suggested already exists – it’s the regular KM class. Those that want to fight should take the fight class.
Sean (CJ’s Dad) in Sherman Oaks, puts on a really great fight class. He’s created a curriculum that encompasses all of the things that you’re looking. If you have the chance, you really should take his class. I look forward to it every week!
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
Just a comment,
The whole absorbtion thing is kind of bothering me. When a student tells me that he benefits from being hit in fight class as if the same shot which he was struck by would be the same in the street????
It’s crazy. You don’t get tougher by absorbing contact. There is no correlation folks. Sorry. This is not to say that you don’t learn to avoid shots by sometimes being caught with them. But to say that being hit makes you tougher is crazy. It does not work that way folks. I mean is a fighter who gets knocked out in a fight tougher in his next fight? No. In fact you could make the argument that he is knocked out easier!
Fight class and KM classes should be different. Self defense and fighting are different. So they should be taught that way.
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
Psyops, I respectfully disagree with you. Learning to take a hit is fundamental to being able to survive a street encounter. It’s also a proven method used by boxers and other disciplines to increase pain threshold and muscle durability. If you’re disagreeing with the method, you’re also disagreeing with hundreds of years of martial arts training.
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
quote Psyops:Just a comment,The whole absorbtion thing is kind of bothering me. When a student tells me that he benefits from being hit in fight class as if the same shot which he was struck by would be the same in the street????
It’s crazy. You don’t get tougher by absorbing contact. There is no correlation folks. Sorry. This is not to say that you don’t learn to avoid shots by sometimes being caught with them. But to say that being hit makes you tougher is crazy. It does not work that way folks. I mean is a fighter who gets knocked out in a fight tougher in his next fight? No. In fact you could make the argument that he is knocked out easier!
Fight class and KM classes should be different. Self defense and fighting are different. So they should be taught that way.
Hi Psyops,
Perhaps it could have been worded differently. I think maybe what was trying to be said was that by getting hit, you are learning what it may feel like getting hit in an encounter and to not go fetal or act stunned. That is a level of toughening or in certain Japanese martial arts they call it taren (forging) or body conditioning.
Re: what do you like in a KM class??
I am going to echo what both Miriam and Stafford said re: Sean’s fight class on Thursday at 6:45. The class brings all the elements to the table that were mentioned and more. If you are unsure than by all means have a run through the Gauntlet or The Ring of Fire. They should more than meet the standard you seek. The training also takes you outside of the normal comfort zones and makes you think outside of just “sparring” your opponent.
It is important to always remember that KM is not only here for those that love to train under conditions that would scare the normal folk. It is here to also provide the normal folk some realistic options for self defense so they are able “to walk in pieces”. thumbsup
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