November 1, 2005 at 5:52 pm #41163fitnesstrainerMember
I think dugfoot and Ryan make good points. It certainly is true that there is a credibility issue for a non-LEO instructor to overcome when teaching LEO’s (I feel the same way about college professors who have never done the job). But once the officers see that the techniques have been geared to what they must accomplish, most are quite receptive and glad to have the training. For example, the NC Justice Academy (where I work) has developed and coordinated several Basic and Advanced Ground Defense IT programs…all of the techniques were developed by Carlson Gracie, Jr., after numerous subject matter committee meetings with him so that he would know what cops typically need to be able to do. The result is courses where every technique is geared either to avoiding being taken down, escape, or control. In other words, a job-relevant LE ground defense course and not a sport grappling class.
Its been my experience that once officers see the relevance and importance of what is being taught, most don’t mind that it may be a non-leo giving the training – as long as the instructor is top quality, we’re just happy to get the training!November 6, 2005 at 9:02 pm #41362
I have to agree with Bill Karn here and he is not in the minority (I am a cop and know). I am glad to hear someone else talk about this. Thank you for your comments.
Generally we just don’t put much weight behind those who try to teach us when they have no experience in any aspect of LE. I am sorry but thatís just the truth. Exceptions are made for individuals that have related experience or an extensive background in teaching and training at an equal or higher level. I know of no persons outside of those directly involved with KMWW or KMNTC who fit this.
A great disappointment to me and my husband was the bringing in of non-law enforcement into the LE KM system. My husband is not a cop, he will not ever teach cops about DT’s, arrest & control, and so on. He is fine teaching them in a non-LE environment as long as they go into it knowing he has no LE experience. Until you have walked a mile in our boots with all of our equipment on, you just will never truly know what we face. Period.
I have sat in Phase training a listened to the would be black belts talk about wanting to learn KM LE and I was glad that they would not be able to. I heard the things they said, those comments and the black belts whom they came from-I will not mention.
I disapprove with the whole idea of it. However I am not in charge of training at KM and it is up to those officers who decide to train to find the instructor as credible to them or not. Being a black belt is a great achievement but being a cop is a way of life. The dedication is undeniable and those that choose to teach us regardless of their experience must understand that you are showing them things that may or may not save their lives.
Do you even understand what happens when you are in the majority of LE? You work alone. Do you understand the deafening sound your heart makes when you are scared and you secretly hope the bad guy canít hear you? Probably not. You know what it feels like to be 5í7î / 135 lbs and a woman on the street? Probably not. I wonder if you even know what it feels like to be the ìthin blue lineî? Probable not. Well I know. You know the dynamics of a soft entry versus a hard entry or how gun retention can be taught in those contexts? These are things only cops know. I donít mean to sound harsh but it is a reality. I would never teach military. I have never been in the military. The policies and laws that guide me are different than in the military.
I only ask that you teach us not for the seemingly ìprestigeî of it, but to endeavor like Darren Levine to making sure we go home each night, we can kiss our families again, we can continue to make our communityís a safer place. That is what it is all about. Darren knows this, he has been with the families of the fallen, and he has seen the pain. He can teach us, most of you just canít know.
Krav Maga of Oregon
[email protected]November 7, 2005 at 1:23 pm #41375
Well, I understand and appreciate your concerns (though you make a ton of assumptions), but I’ll just agree to disagree with most of it. Darren was never in LE–neither was John, Michael, Marni, Sam, Amir, Jarrett, Brent, etc. (I think I’m correct on these.) Wade, to my knowledge, is just about the only one \”active\” at the NTC who has LE experience.November 8, 2005 at 2:09 am #41392
You wrote: \”though you make a ton of assumptions\”
What assumptions do I make? Please be articulate.
Darren is a good friend, we have had many talks over what he knows about my job- his own job is directly related to mine therefore he has the knowledge to teach LE. Again, what is yours? What is your motive? Is it only to give your program more credibility or do you truly care if we go home in one piece? The others at KMWW built this program and have infinitely more experience in it and have become privy to information and training related to the job. They are in a different class altogether than you or I for that matter.
As for Sam and Amir- their military experience is undeniable however Sam has even said he does not know what it is like. Just like I will never know what it is like to be in the military. Until I decide to join the Armed Forces, I have no business teaching them and I leave it to those who know.
Whether or not you are allowed to teach LE by KMWW, does not make it right in the eyes of those who are full timers on the road. Itís a fact; however it is up to those who choose to take Law Enforcement related instruction from you or others like you. My point is Bill is not in the ìminorityî you are.
I made valid points- where is your discussion of them? Again, I would like to know just what assumptions I have made, and if I have please disprove them by telling me all about your knowledge of my job.November 8, 2005 at 1:10 pm #41395
Considering your condescending and presumptive tone, I see no point in continuing this discussion. You have no desire for open and honest debate, you only want to \”prove\” your \”side\”. That’s fine, and you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how narrow-minded it may be.
I’ll just say this, I don’t need whatever perceived \”credibility\” this supposedly carries. Furthermore, your haughtiness has blinded you to your own contradictions, and your \”facts\” are simply your opinions. You know nothing about me, my school, or my motivations. I run a small program that could have \”sold out\” to the almighty dollar many times over, but that’s not what we’re about. I wish you the best.November 9, 2005 at 1:09 am #41418
Ryan- Thanks for making my point!
I am \”condescending and presumptive\” my ìhaughtiness has blinded me to my own contradictionsî (FYI, name calling is always a good way to win a debate) yet you make no argument or points to validate your stance, only accuse me of not understanding.
Enlighten me; tell me what the argument is? Instead you just throw up your hands and don’t want to talk about it, fine. I still don’t know what experiences you have? What I do know is God forbid anyone say anything not in tune with your own views.
You never did answer any of my questions… Which I guess answers all of ours!
Thanks for all of your time guys.
Sorry, I tried but what do you do?! All of us at the shop agree with you. 😉 Be safe.November 9, 2005 at 1:40 am #41419
Which point would that be? The one where you’re always right?
I called you no names, I only named your behavior, and I’m not trying to \”win\” anything, you are.
What difference does my background make? In your eyes, unless I’m LE or former LE, I’m not qualified (oh, unless I teach at the NTC, of course.) 🙄 I have Darren’s blessing, Pascal seemed pleased, and I know the LEOs, teams, departments, and DT instructors I’ve trained over the years are happy with what I’ve given them and continue to give them, so \”convincing\” you really isn’t at the top of my list of priorities. No one’s forcing you or anyone else to take training from civilians. It’s a free market, and everyone can make their own educated choices.
Oh well, I must go prepare for my meeting with the NC Subject Control and Arrest Techniques Committee this weekend. I hope I can \”sell\” them with my fancy certifications and guile, so they don’t catch on to me and my evil intentions. 😛November 9, 2005 at 6:28 pm #41453bill-karnMember
Thanks for your good points and support. I guess when you’re in the \”minority\”, you have to stick together. 😉
\”I’ll just say this, I don’t need whatever perceived \”credibility\” this supposedly carries\”
OK, then why do it? Why got to LA and spend the time, money and effort to get certified? And why post your KMFT certification on your website?
If you did it to benefit your local LEOs, that’s great. But why not just offer a discount to LEOs for regular KM training at your school? Or offer your facilities to local LE agencies to do their own in-service DT training? Or send one of your more talented students/instructors who are active LE (most KM schools have several who are attracted to the nature of the training – I don’t know if your’s does) to become KMFT certified? Or the other methods I mentioned previously, like working with current LE DT instructors to improve their existing programs?
Obviously, you are a businessman and have to run your school the way you see fit, and I wouldn’t tell you how to run your business. But I think all those options above are better than allowing civilian KMFT instructors to teach the LE program. I’ve attended LE seminars with Darren, but all that he taught was weapons defenses and other stuff that is taught to high level civilian classes. He never taught any weapon retention, handcuffing, arrest & control or use of force escalation/de-escalation nor did he pretend to be an expert at things that he wasn’t familiar with.
I guess my bottom-line question that nobody seems to answer is, WHY did the KMFT system change to start allowing certification of civilian instructors?
Was there a shortage of certified instructors? I know Londale and some of the other senior instructors are willing to travel, and have travelled, across the country to run Instructor Certification classes and LE seminars. Hell, we’ve got around 30 certified KMFT instructors available in Western NY that were certified in at least one of the Series through the Training Edge in the past. And I’d be honored to instruct a training class with any of them.
Or were there some incredible skills that only \”select\” civilian instructors had that the KMFT program was in need of? I don’t think so. As I stated before, I respect the abilities of all the civilian instructors, but I don’t think the program was lacking for their absence. Many of the KM LE instructors are very skilled. And what better way to sell the simplicity and ease to learn/use of the system than by having one of your own LE brothers or sisters that you work with everyday perform it and teach it? As both Kirsten and I both stated, having civilian instructors trying to teach experienced street cops and veteran C.O.s does dramatically decrease the program’s credibility and acceptance level among those its supposed to be helping.
So, again, if the change to allow civilian certification was not needed, why do it? The only reason I’ve heard, and I don’t know if it’s true or not, is that other \”Israeli\” or \”military-style\” self-defense systems were offering civilians certifications to instruct their law enforcement programs and that KMWW did not want to lose schools or potential business by not allowing civilians to instruct KMFT. If there is another reason, I’d like to hear it.November 9, 2005 at 6:45 pm #41455
\”If you did it to benefit your local LEOs, that’s great. But why not just offer a discount to LEOs for regular KM training at your school? Or offer your facilities to local LE agencies to do their own in-service DT training? Or send one of your more talented students/instructors who are active LE (most KM schools have several who are attracted to the nature of the training – I don’t know if your’s does) to become KMFT certified? Or the other methods I mentioned previously, like working with current LE DT instructors to improve their existing programs?\”
Bill, I do ALL of those things. The ATF was here just a couple of weeks ago using the place for a PPCT re-certification course. I’ve had the city and the county use my place, and I’ve also taught them.
Look, you and Kirsten have your opinions, and that’s great. I have mine. EVERY other certification I’ve ever gotten was made public via press release–this one was not. Believe what you want, I don’t really care. I got into this because my LEO students and friends asked for my help. Regarding why KMAA saw a need, you’ll have to ask them.
I will continue to support LE as long as there is a need and my services are wanted. When that ceases to be the case, I’ll no longer do it.
For the record, I’ve never made ONE DIME off of ANY LE ONLY training that I’ve ever given. I’m done with this discussion, as it’s the same old thing, but I wish you all the best.November 9, 2005 at 7:36 pm #41458jon-hermanMember
Bill and Kristen,
Ryan’s intent is solid and reputable. And he is the furthest person from what you portray.
Besides, an argument must stand alone regardless of who makes it.
1. We offer discount to LE and military.
2. Our facility is used by local LE for DT.
3. We have two exceptional LE instructor candidates.
4. Current LE DT instructors are always pulling from our programs and training.
5. We do not advertise this (other than this post now).
But my concerns are this..
1. We are ultimately responsible for what is taught under our roof. For quality assurance, it’s my job to be sure proper technique, tactics and teaching methods are presented.
2. LE continues to approach me because they trust and value MY feedback. They also know that if I don’t know the answer, I’ll damn well find it for them.
3. Minor tweaks and scenario adjustments can be made during regular KM class drills/training to allow LE to work their tactics. I want to be sure those tweaks re-enforce good responses.
Ultimately, I am responsible for the training I provide and I care. period. Ryan is the same.
But does this address your original argument?: Only active LE have the necessary and relevant experience to instruct other LE.
PS. I am not a LE instructor, nor do I play one on TV.November 9, 2005 at 9:46 pm #41485dugfootMember
OK, now my turn. I wasn’t going to post any further comments in response to this thread but now I feel I must.
Jon and Dee from CoreTactix are my primary Krav instructors. Their exceptional knowledge and skill as well as ability to teach what they know is why myself and several other LEO’s train with them. They have never tried to tell us how to use arrest and control techniques but at the same time their knowledge of combatives, self-defenses and weapons defenses rivals and even exceeds many other instructors. This is includes LE only instructors. The fact that neither one are current or former LE doesn’t stop me or other LEO’s from learning from them or reccomending them to others.
As I stated in a previous submittal to this thread, there are those out there that have gone above and beyond to learn about the needs of the LE community. Dan Severn is the example I used and what he’s done to meet this need.
I used to always lean towards instructors that were only current or former LE, such as Londale, for my LE needs but my opinion has changed. I agree that they may be some intangibles that come from only someone who has \”lived\” it but if we are so narrow-minded that we only go to those with LE experience we are missing out on awesome learning opportunites from instructors that truely care about the LE community.
Here in Ohio at the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy the lead DT instructor is a man named Sam Faulkner. It is my understanding that when Sam was hired for the DT and Basic Academy instructors position, he was not former or current LEO. His background included the Marines, several years of martial arts and an advanced degree in Exercise Physiology. Sam became a student of what LEO’s needs are. He studied the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report and other sources to develope a DT program that works for the LE community. Sam also went as far as to become a certified peace officer and still works part-time for a local community. I’m not saying that everyone who teaches LEO’s has to do this but he chose to. Sam is now known throughout the nationwide LE community for his knowledge and skill base when it comes to Response to Resistance/Use of Force continuums as well as what \”works\” for police DT. I’ve been in classes with Sam where there were people working for the Federal Goverment and based out of Tennessee who were attending the class. I asked these 2 participants how they were able to get approval to come to a state agency in Ohio for advanced training and weren’t required to attend a FLETC program. Their response was that all they had to tell their superiors was that the class was being taught by Sam Faulkner and there was no problem with getting approval. That’s pretty good for someone that started out with no LE background.
Yes there are many fine examples of people that can teach LEO’s that don’t have an LE background.November 10, 2005 at 3:07 am #41508
\”guess my bottom-line question that nobody seems to answer is, WHY did the KMFT system change to start allowing certification of civilian instructors?\”
Well Bill, I guess we have yet to get that answer…. perhaps someday. Everyone seems to have missed your point.
KNovember 10, 2005 at 3:50 am #41509
Why don’t you just call Darren and ask him, since you’re such good friends?
BTW, just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t get it–maybe they do get it, they just think you’re wrong.
Bill, as I said from the outset, you make some valid points, and I understand where you are coming from here, I just don’t agree with blanket indictments of \”civilian\” instructors.November 10, 2005 at 8:35 am #41515
Yes. Very mature.
I am done- I am sure you are not however, since you seem to have a burning desire to have the last word….. I leave the stage to you.November 10, 2005 at 1:20 pm #41516
I’m quite serious. If this idea is such an affront to you, why don’t you call Darren and ask him? Nothing will be solved here, especially since you have no desire to listen, only bloviate.
Bill, let’s look at it a different way. Let’s say there are civilian instructors who are already teaching LEOs. They were approached by DT instructors, and they were asked for opinions on self defense, weapon defenses, combatives, etc. Now, does it not behoove that instructor (and subsequently his students) to know as much about the goals and limitations of those he’s teaching? Does it not make sense for them to have a better understanding of use of force, subject control, handcuffing, searching procedures, weapon retention, etc.? This allows the instructor to keep the offerings much more relevant. I personally don’t teach these things (though, if asked, I’ll give the \”Krav Maga response\”), but my knowledge of them helps me to be a better instructor for LEOs who I may be teaching just \”civilian KM\”.
I hope this makes sense–imperfect medium.
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