@mdeaneuscg
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Re: Standing control of an active subject question
Oh, and Don, I know some of our units played around with the Highgear suits, but I think at some point someone made the decision that the only authorized UoF training suit would be the Redman. My guess is it was an officer that’s never done UoF training
Re: Standing control of an active subject question
quote Jeremy Stafford:Mike,
That being said… Unconsciousness is always the best compliance.That being true, our UoF policy doesn’t really accommodate it too well. We also can’t put a knee in someone’s face, at least at my current understanding of the policy. That is largely the problem, is that our policy is so vague that people feel they have to use the BS taught defensive tactics in order to stay out of trouble. They get mentally worked up that they can’t deliver a knee strike to anywhere but the thigh or ribs. However, from what I have been told, I can utilize any punch, kick, or strike to any soft, meaty portion of the body, meaning no spine, head (still unclear if that makes the face off limits), or joints.
It’s crap like our UoF policy that makes me want to get out and do LE with another agency that actually gives a **** enough to keep up with case law.
Re: Standing control of an active subject question
Yeah, as I said, I haven’t really had a chance to play around with it yet. We did some Redman scenarios, and both instances where I got hands on, it started with me getting shoved up against a wall, clinching, and us going to the ground. Obviously, that’s not where I intended things to go, but I ended up on top when I got there, and kneed the **** out of the roleplayer and gained compliance.
It’s a whole different animal wrestling around with someone while wearing level 4 body armor, helmet, and full LE belt. And those damn Redman suits don’t give the best representation of targets, not to mention that they hide more subtle threat indicators. I always feel like a fumbling idiot dealing with the guy in the Redman suitRe: Should I Learn Krav Maga or….
Baton and LTL are covered under our 5th level of force, which includes the proper use of expandable baton and rubber fin stabilized munitions. However, on everything else, you’d be correct. What’s crazy, is that Congress gives us a ton of leeway under 14USC89, stating we may use ‘all necessary force to compel compliance’. Our UoF policy, levels, and guiding principles are all instructions approved by the Commandant that limit that overarching power given by Congress.
I’m hoping it’s not me that has to find out the hard way whether or not the CG will back me up if a defense attorney starts poking holes in our archaic UoF policy. From what I’ve heard, we are pretty far behind the power curve when it comes to UoF policy and case law. I feel the problem lies with the fact that we don’t deal with a ton of UoF cases, so we haven’t had to change many things yet.Re: Should I Learn Krav Maga or….
Yeah, we define deadly force as any force likely to cause death or serious physical injury.
We define serious physical injury as any actual physical injury likely to result in unconsciousness, protracted or obvious disfigurement, or protracted impairment or loss of function of a bodily member, organ, our mental faculty.So, since kicking/striking/grabbing to the groin could likely result in ruptured testicles, it is considered deadly force.
Re: Standing control of an active subject question
Yeah Don, that position is exactly what i was referring to. I didn’t really get a chance to play around with it, as I’m in a more structured “do it out way” kind of DT training environment right now. It was something I mentioned to an instructor, and he listed those possible hazards to that position. I wanted to know if it worked fine for you, or if you had to do something else to maintain good weapon/gear retention.
Re: Should I Learn Krav Maga or….
Krav Maga gives me the confidence in my capabilities under stress. I’ve done a number of different martial arts and defensive tactics stuff, but Krav gives you solid principles, and good techniques that work under duress. The stress drills seem pretty unique to Krav as well, and do a good job at increasing proficiency in a combat environment. That, along with the lack of any of the formalities of other arts like forms, means that Krav can focus only on one thing, going home alive.
Also, something i learned while applying Krav to my use of force policy, is that while some stuff may be off limits unless I’m in a deadly force situation (groin strikes), with proper articulation, i can fit a lot of Krav into my policy. It is also worth noting that the heart of Krav Maga is based on the initial response to the threat, at least in my opinion. Many things, like 360 defense, inside defense, etc. can be utilized regardless of agency policy, and any defense against a choke or weapon that may include unauthorized strikes otherwise, become valid because you are acting in defense of your life.
Re: Is Rank Important to You?
quote KevinMack:I hate when people say Krav Maga has no rules. There are tons of rules in the system and in training.
“Dont get hurt”- IMIdefend-control and attack.
redirect the line of fire..control the weapon….attack…take away.
360- wrist to wrist-elbow bent-blade of the forearm-fwd pressure
we dont poke each other in the eyes..we pull our punches…we dont kick each other in the groins without protection,etc,etc,etc. This no rules cath phrase is annoying and just makes us sound like nerds. “Krav Maga will always beat an MMA guy cause MMA has rules and Krav has no rules” absurd.
While I completely understand what you are getting at, to say that there are ‘rules’, at least from my perspective, implies that there are limitations on what the person can do in combat. Things like not hitting the back of the head, not gouging eyes, not kicking the groin are rules. These are hard trained into an MMA fighter, and they therefore would likely not even think about employing those taboo techniques in a real confrontation, because they don’t train them. The ‘rules’ you posted are more the principles and training methods that are employed in krav, but do not attempt to limit our capability in a confrontation. The true rules that we must follow in Krav are actually laws governing the use of force in self defense.
So, to say that krav has no rules is in fact false, as we must conform to self defense law. Otherwise, we’d just end up killing or maiming anyone and everyone that ever attempted to lay hands on us, and a lot of people would go to jail.
Re: Training course: switch partner ?
It’s really a double edged sword. On one hand, yes, you get all the good experience of dealing with different types of people, which can change how you have to make your defenses (what works on your 4’9″ 110lb female partner likely won’t have the same effect on the 6’7″ 240lb giant of the class).
On the other hand though, as you work with someone, you start to build a trust, which can be a valuable thing in a training environment. You start to know much you up the pressure on your partner, and you feel more comfortable actually attacking them because you know they will make the defense. Then, you switch partners, and now you’ve got someone massaging your neck because they don’t want to actually choke you, or they punch 6″ off the side of your face when working inside defenses, and you don’t get anything out of it.
I think it is good to develop good training relationships with a few different people of different sizes and statures so you can get the variance in body type without the sacrifice of having to teach someone new how to attack you. I’m also a fan of working the technique with your normal partner, and then doing the “A, B” drill where A’s get attacked by B’s and then they switch. That way, you get to learn the technique in a controlled environment with someone you are comfortable with, and then are put into the drill and have to adapt it on the fly to new people, like you would in the real world.
Re: MMA and Krav!
Krav is primarily a combination of two things as far as I am aware. Principle, and mindset. You follow the principles of Krav, such as simultaneous attack and defense, training to defend from a position of disadvantage, and recognizing and responding to the primary and secondary threats. You apply these principles to the defenses, and the principles of the defenses (attacking the attack where it is weakest, RCAT for gun defense, etc.). Then, while gaining your understanding of these principles, and how the techniques utilize them, you are also building a survivor’s mindset. You are forging a mental toughness by doing the stress and exhaustion drills. You are inoculating yourself to the stress you would feel in a violent encounter. You are learning to recognize an attack and to respond appropriately. You are becoming more aware of your surroundings, making you less of a target for a would be attacker. The truth about what Krav Maga is, is that Krav Maga is what happens in the first 2-5 seconds of your defenses. It really is all about the stuff going on in your trained head in that split second that you recognize what’s happening, and can break out of the ‘freeze’ to respond with an appropriate defense. All the cool combatives we work don’t mean jack if you can’t make the initial defense.
Those in the traditional martial arts or mixed martial arts world do not see this though. What they see from a krav class, is a bunch of guys and girls doing some funky choke defense, or a defense against a knife, and then throwing the combatives from systems they train in, like muay thai. Then they comment that our combatives aren’t as crisp as theirs, and that you are wasting your money. Same goes for the juijitsu guys that see us doing ground defenses.
The reason our combatives and ‘ground game’ isn’t as good as those guys is simple. They ONLY train those things, and likely do it twice as much as most people do Krav. We aren’t training to be able to go toe to toe with the muay thai master, or to wrestle around with the juijitsu blue belts. We are training to survive the unannounced assault on our life and well being.Also, I can’t totally verify this, but I’m guessing that a big difference of military oriented Krav is that they also include the offensive side of things. Stuff to be used when you sneak up on a sentry, or using your M4 to beat someone down as you come into a room. There is no reason that regular Joe Blow needs to know how to do these things to defend themselves.
Re: Is Rank Important to You?
Being in the military, and being in a military family all my life, a rank or grade in anything to me, is seen as a checkpoint. When you move around every 2-4 years, you have to start over with new relationships, new friends, a new work schedule, etc. It’s nice to know that I can take my KM certificate to the next place I train, and say “I don’t need to start over in this”. It isn’t about a higher level of respect, or an ego boost. Obviously I’d still need to prove that I’m still up to par, but at least it gets my foot in the door of the advanced classes.
Re: What to expect?
quote Shipwreck:+1 to everything Don said. Be prepared to be sore the next day too. Especially if they decide to do something like knee strikes…..Knee strikes won’t be too bad, it’s when they throw in the 360 defense on your first day that test your desire. My fore arms were black and blue for a week after that first class.
Re: My first class and have some basic questions
Couldn’t put it better myself TacticalTimmy. Sometimes using what may be considered a more aggressive response to an assault is the best solution to keep all parties safer.
For example, as a LEO, my use of force continuum places our pepper spray at level 4, along with general combatives, and places pressure points and joint manipulation at level 3. I have to consider what is going to be the most effective way to control the situation. If I believe that by trying to use a joint manipulation or pressure point, the subject could get combative and force me to up the level of force, then I may opt to jump up a level to OC spray, which I can employ at a distance. By doing that, I may have just prevented a drawn out hands on fight that could cause me to use my baton, or possibly even use deadly force if it got that bad. So the subject comes out of it with 45 minutes of pain and suffering, but no broken bones, and I go home.In short, sometimes a higher level of force can actually prevent the need to use even more force.
Re: My first class and have some basic questions
quote Don:@ MDeane – I agree. I guess I didn’t do a very good job of it but I was trying to say that For Me, “video friendly” techniques such as pressure points, pain compliance type techniques, joint manipulations (where I’m Not immediately tearing or breaking), etc are valid tools/options but only have limited applicability or smaller windows of opportunity. Some other instances besides dumb resistive drunks off the top of my head, very young or old subjects/suspects, handcuffed persons, team takedowns, passive protesters, etc…I wasn’t trying to say your post wasn’t informative, if it came across that way. It just seemed like the OP thinks that pressure points and joint manipulations are all he’ll need to learn to be a registered BAMF, and as we’ve all said, that isn’t the case.
Also, yeah, it becomes difficult to explain why you and your partner just beat the hell out of 9 year old Timmy and his 90 year old great granny at a treehugger convention after handcuffing them. I guess that’s where the pressure points and ‘soft’ techniques come in.
Re: What to expect?
Just go in with an open mind, and a no quit attitude. Expect to be challenged physically, emotionally, and psychologically. Bring a bottle of water and a towel. Level 1 classes are largely conditioning and foundational work for the later levels. Conditioning doesn’t just refer to physically though. A large part of Krav Maga is the mentality and attitude. If you are expecting a calm experience, you won’t find it. Aggression (controlled of course) is encouraged, and you will be pushed out of your comfort zone at least once. This is done to heighten your stress levels, to give some preparation to the levels of stress you will experience if you are ever the victim of a violent attack
