Episode 14: From Burnout to breakthrough
Joel Ellenbecker
Well, hey, Matt. Thanks for jumping on to chat with me today. Yeah, man, it's an absolute pleasure.
I'm super honored to be a part of this. So a big reason why I wanted to chat with you is that we both attended this, you know, it was a week and a half ago now and the end of June, the Krav Maga Worldwide Black Belt Training Weekend. And we attended that together.
And I just also thought it was really neat that, you know, you're the first non-school owner, you're a black belt instructor in Krav Maga, you also have a black belt in Jiu Jitsu. And I just thought it'd be really neat for us to chat about that weekend and just chat about your journey in general.
Matt Roberts
Yeah, no, that's super cool. Yeah, I was really surprised when you reached out to me. Again, man, just kind of honored, humbled by the opportunity to talk to you.
But it was great meeting you. And obviously we got to roll together, which was super fun as well. So yeah, appreciate it.
Yeah, that was awesome, man.
Joel Ellenbecker
Okay, so let's go all the way in the way back time machine. What got you started with Krav Maga? What got you interested?
Why did you even look into it?
Matt Roberts
Yeah, so my first exposure to Krav Maga was the National Geographic Fight Science that is kind of infamous. I think, you know, Kelly was on that episode with... Was it Amir?
Yeah, I think it was Amir. And so I saw that episode that got me interested in it. And at the time, man, I was like mid-30s.
I was kind of a quintessential meathead. All I did was lift and work out. Couldn't make it up a flight of stairs without, you know, needing to catch my breath.
Couldn't reach my own back. And my wife was pregnant with our first child at the time. And I was like, man, I need to do something different.
You know, I started kind of thinking about that protective mindset. And so I just went and tried a class. Krav Maga Dallas with Eric Hicks.
Shout out to Eric. Went and did the class. Yeah, such a great dude.
And I remember my first class to this day, we worked knees and they handed a guy that was about my size a kick shield and had him hold it and told me to knee him and just kept yelling for me to do it harder and harder, which was awesome. I was smoked like 45 seconds into it. I was hooked, man.
Signed up, literally walked out of class, signed up and had to look back. And that was 2012, January 2012.
Joel Ellenbecker
That's amazing. A couple of things that popped up while you were talking. So Amir just led with our chief instructor of force training, John Paschal.
And there was another awesome MMA guy there as well. And Anderson Silva. They all just did a law enforcement training last week.
That's great. So when you talked about Amir on fight science, that was the first thing I saw. I was like, oh, cool.
Anderson Silva is doing Krav Maga with like our people. This is amazing. That's awesome.
Matt Roberts
I've never trained with Amir. I've done a course with John Paschal, but I've always wanted to train with Amir because I've heard just nothing but like amazing things about him.
Joel Ellenbecker
He's so great. I had the opportunity just a couple times where I think he was just like around the training center in L.A. And he popped in and Kelly invited him in just to like share some knowledge and such an amazing human being. There's also I think it was like my face.
He came in, he was working like kicks with us. And I just have this like ingrained into my mind because he was he went with every participant or maybe his ex for one. I remember he went with every participant and he was doing like kicks with us.
And I don't think he had shin guards on and he was like muscle. Yeah, there's a lot of those crazy stories out there. It's awesome.
Legs are like tree trunks. They're so strong. Yeah, it's crazy.
But amazing, amazing people. And Eric Hicks. So he's he's the licensee, the school owner, your main instructor, right?
Matt Roberts
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
He's he's been the owner. We you know, I came up under Eric 2013, kind of early. So I've been in training about a year, year plus.
He started kind of like asking me if I was interested in becoming an instructor. And then I sort of shadowed him for a while. You know, he let me kind of help teach classes.
I do the warm ups and things like that. And I did that for a few months. And then I want to say it was like November of 13 is when I went to face a October, November, that time frame.
And then, yeah, just been on the instructor journey kind of ever since. Take a brief, brief, brief. I took a long break in twenty eighteen after my brown belt and just really focused on jujitsu.
And then one of the students that kind of came with me, he got close. So he was doing all his phases, experts, and then he was ready to start going for his black belt. And I was like, well, I can't let Carl pass me.
So I we ended up doing it together. I did a three. We did a four together and then we did a five in September of last year.
So that's awesome. Yeah, I managed to get my jujitsu black belt before I got my crown. We got black belt.
Joel Ellenbecker
Wow, that's incredible, man. Yeah, I want to I want to talk more about that. Eric is awesome, dude.
He had came up a couple of years ago to Wisconsin. We do a big seminar every year. We've got another one planned in October, but he came up and supported with that.
And then we linked up because I think he started Krav Maga like way before that. And then he was running other businesses and things. And so we ended up linking up on our path, kind of like you just said, with you and Carl started doing some courses together.
And he's just such a like such an awesome person, but like a great training partner, really, really smart when it comes to a lot of things. But, you know, Krav Maga particularly, too.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. And I don't I don't think he'd mind me telling the story, but it was it was crazy because when I started, he was a blue belt instructor. And, you know, he and I even had like I started doing the phase.
I got to my green belt and he was like, yeah, you can pass me. I don't really want to do this anymore. And I'm like, come on, man.
So I dragged him to Houston to a Darren Levine seminar. And like, I mean, he probably doesn't like I dragged him and you got to go with me. And I was so glad I did.
And he's so grateful he did because it completely reignited his passion for Krav Maga. And then that's when he kind of got back on his journey. And then, you know, obviously now is the third day.
And so, yeah, it was super cool to watch him like get his passion reignited and turn his business around and everything else. So I'm forever grateful for that opportunity and for him getting passionate about Krav Maga again.
Joel Ellenbecker
I think that brings up a great point. Like for me, the times where I've had lulls in my journey, I mean, karate first, I did kickboxing and Krav Maga and jujitsu now, too, is like when I get out of the habit or the routine of like training and learning and growing, you know, like and I get pulled in a different direction or like my businesses or family, because, you know, we all we all have so much stuff that we're juggling. It's like that's when I start to lose the steam and the momentum and the motivation for even teaching and sharing, too.
So I think it's just so important. Like what you said, Eric went to a Darren Levine seminar and he was like reignited and inspired and like that sent him forward. Like I've had those moments, too.
And I feel like the Black Belt weekend was a little bit of that for me or even just like getting to meet CJ and training with him more. Like it's it's uncovered for me that there's there's more layers to this stuff. So I think like people never want to feel like, oh, they know it all, which like even if someone thinks they know it all, they probably don't.
Right.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's interesting you say that because, you know, when I was you know, I did like I said, I mentioned I did my Brown in 2018.
And honestly, man, like I just got so bored with it. You know, at that point, I felt like what else is there to learn? Like I'd been to I'd been to half dozen seminars at that point with Darren and John Pascal and, you know, rev your universities and different things like that.
And I felt like I'd seen it all and I'd seen a lot, obviously, but I was foolish. I didn't know it all. And that's kind of why I hit the pause and I just got laser focused on training jujitsu.
And that was like, you know, I was trained in nine hours a week and I was still teaching Krav. So I was still passionate about teaching and sharing, you know, the Krav Maga, the people that need it. But it just wasn't like training for me.
Like it wasn't that important anymore. And then, you know, I got kind of motivated to go to, you know, pursue my black belt. And then, you know, the the gun course with CJ and the Black Belt Weekend, man, like it just I'm more excited now about training Krav Maga than I've been in years.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah, man, that's so cool to hear. And I think I mean, there's a lot there for me, even before meeting CJ and all the cool new stuff that we're doing, like you mentioned the handgun mastery course, like all that stuff is amazing. Even just like going from after I got my black belt to second Don, like, you know, black belt is or sorry, brown belt is basically the same material.
And then it's two preps, which is basically the same material. And then black belt is like the same material. So it's just a lot of the same.
And like, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, we need to get really, really, really sharp at those skills. But when I went to my first second on training, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, it's totally different.
Like, it's still Krav Maga, but there's all these new things to learn like that was, that was really exciting. And so I'm glad that we got to share a little bit of that over the weekend together, doing some of the second Don review. That was fun.
Matt Roberts
Yeah, it was. Yeah, what risk I mean, for me, man, what I battle with, and it's probably my my personality, a little bit of ADHD, whatever the you know, it is not clinically diagnosed, by the way, but I've been in sales for 25 years. And like, I like learning and I like doing and I think to your point, you know, when you're doing the same thing over and over, at least for me, that's where my mind like I have to battle like my own little kind of inner mind, like, dude, like, let's move on.
Let's do something different. Yeah, you did see was, but then listening to CJ and doing that course. And here in that concept of vertical learning, you know, I was doing the horizontal learning, you know, chasing everything, man, I was doing knife courses, and I was taking gun courses.
And I was, you know, going to grappling seminars, and I was doing everything but Krav Maga looking for different things, collecting all these tools and skills. And then when he said vertical learning, it just completely resonated with me. And, you know, when we did the gun seminar, I was the one that was asking all the questions about why I learned it this way.
And, you know, and, you know, and he quickly showed me why, you know, it wasn't optimal. And it just got me thinking, man, like, I've been repping more things since then than I've done in years. Just because, again, like, I'm so in tune now with this concept of like vertical learning, I want to understand everything deeper.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah, that's awesome, dude. And I think, I think, when when we get exposed to, you know, what feels like a new or shiny object, and we get reignited and re motivated to dive in, like, I had a crazy travel experience after Houston, like I like, missed a flight because of weather, then I had to rent a car and drive and I just like slept in the car. It was crazy.
It was wild. But I still got up that next morning. And I did a lesson with two of my instructors because I was just so pumped to share what we learned.
I was like, I got to share this, like, I got to show them what this stuff is. Because I know that like, if they see it, they're gonna get pumped, and they're gonna get excited. And so it's funny how it's like when we're really committed to something versus just kind of interested, like how, how we'll make things work, right?
So I could have easily been like, Oh, I got like three hours of sleep, like, I'm not going to get up and do this. But like, I really wanted to.
Matt Roberts
Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker
And here's something that I haven't really talked a lot about, but it's been like pumping in, moving around in my brain. So we have a, you know, in Kraven, I'm sure that you have this too. It's like, we have this kind of mantra of like, fix it with violence.
You know, it's like, if something if there's if we mess up, or we screw up or something, it's like, all right, we'll punch him harder, kick him harder. And I think that is still true. But since the black belt weekend, I've almost like been like, I think sometimes there's a better way.
I think sometimes there's like a nuance within the technique or a level, you know, to that vertical learning that we talked about, where it's like, we just didn't go deep enough to think hard enough about it's like, well, what else can we do with the violence? Yeah. Did that?
Did you notice that totally?
Matt Roberts
Yeah, totally. I actually was having conversations with, with Eric kind of off the side. That's like, man, I've always felt like coming up and our answer was always like, just kick him in the groin or just hit him harder to your point.
And yeah, I'm with you. It's like, no, like, let's make sure we're executing the techniques or the movements, I think is probably a better way to articulate techniques to make sure we're executing the movements properly to make it again, more optimal. And then, you know, let's add that kick or that punch or whatever.
So, um, I was working with one of our, um, he's one of our brown belt instructors getting ready to go out and we were just working gun from the front and this past Saturday, kind of like you, I was, I'm so excited to share all this, but just the idea of like getting his elbow further across his body until he feels like tension in his shoulder, which is what CJ gave me when we were out for the gun course as a physical cue makes a much bigger redirection. And then when you go to punch the gun into the hip, it just forces the body where you can definitely like, I had him do it the way he was doing it.
And I resisted the, the, the him trying to punch it into my hip and he couldn't do it. Like he couldn't get it punched into my hip. And I said, I'll take your, your elbow further across your body until you feel that tension.
I said, wow, punch down. And the second he did it, I was like this. And I was like that little tweak, because again, we condition ourselves as our partners just let us do these bad, you know, bad things over.
And that's what I was telling him. I was like, so what you want to feel is like, you want to feel that tension. So irregardless of if your partner's letting you do it or not, at least you've got a physical cue to know you're doing it right.
And you could just tell, like it ignited something in him. He was like, man, so yes, I'm with you, man.
Joel Ellenbecker
It's so great. I mean, I, I don't want to get away from like, yeah, fix it with violence. Like that is like a thing that's a monster.
And it's like, I think people who don't have the level of depth and they haven't done that vertical development, they just don't have any other answers. So they have to say punch them harder or kick them harder. And I think that's, what's so cool about how deeply CJ has thought and practices.
It's like, he can, he can support us, you know, and other leaders to Darren for sure. And Kelly and John and Amir, like we've talked about, they can help us continue to go deeper. And that's, that's sometimes what gets me bummed when people like split off and they're like, I think I know it all.
And it's like, dude, I've, I've been doing this a while. And I know, I don't know it all.
Matt Roberts
I know now that I don't know anything. I mean, that's how I feel now. I felt that way after, like after I got my black belt, it was, I remember my professor and his professor told him, it's like, dude, like you will literally feel like you're starting over.
And I remember walking in, like I went to class the day after I got it and I was tying it on. And I was like, oh my gosh, I have the same nervous energy that I had when I walked in here as a light belt. Yeah.
It's that realization that like, you don't know everything, but people are going to think you do.
Joel Ellenbecker
One totally. And it's like, okay, you know, with your black belt in Krav or Jiu Jitsu, you're like, all right, I'm a black belt. Let's say at that moment, you're like, or I'm going to go start my own school.
I'm going to go start my own organization. And it's like, you're now the sole brain versus like with KMW, like we're connected. Like we have this network of like, okay, I've been experiencing this.
I haven't experienced this. And like at the weekend, we got to like play with that together versus, you know, I think a lot of times people are like, well, I tried it and this is what I've come to the conclusion on. It's like, iron sharpens iron.
We need each other to prove it to each other that it's like, no, this is actually what's going to work.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. Communities are always stronger than individuals, for sure.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah. Agreed. Okay.
And we're going to go way back because this has been really exciting, but I want to make sure that I get to it. So in your mid thirties, you were just like super tight because you were lifting and strong. And then you decided to take on Krav Maga.
I think a lot of times, and you might've heard this from students too, but we get it all the time. It's like, people are like, well, you know, like I have to like get in a certain shape or I have to do something or I'm too old or, you know, whatever it is. Like, what do you, what do you say to those people coming from your experience?
Matt Roberts
I see that, you know, it's just do it. Right. I mean, I was out of shape.
At least I thought I was in shape. I was strong, but I had no gas tank. I ended up losing like 15 pounds, which was awesome.
Flexibility came in, my cardio improved. So yeah, from a, you know, the fitness side of it, it was awesome. I continued to lift and I stayed strong, but you know, that also wasn't a priority for me anymore.
And, you know, I think my first year Hicks, I joke about this all the time, but like my first year, I think I trained like 250 hours. And then I did another 250 hours, like my second year. And I traveled a lot for work.
So like, even if I was on the road, again, being part of KMW, I was popping into schools. So I was training, you know, I was going out of Houston a lot training with those guys, you know, once a quarter, periodically, San Antonio, just all over. But yeah, I think, you know, if you're looking for, you know, don't let it be an excuse.
Like you'll never get in the shape you think you need to be in if you don't just do it.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah. And I think I've kind of cliche, but like, it just, it sticks for me is like, people don't have to be great to start, but they have to start to be great. And then it's like, what can I do?
What can I do today that will let me show up tomorrow? Because like a lot of people, I think in this culture are like, you can buy it now, get it now, go through a drive through that sort of thing. But it's like, we're not going to get everything that Krav Maga has to offer us in one class.
So going as hard as we possibly can and like hurting ourselves has absolutely no benefit. It's like, just show up and it's like, do what we can, and then just keep doing that. Like you said, the consistency of 250 hours, like that's how skills are developed year after year.
So super cool. So when, so Eric identified pretty early on that you might be an instructor candidate.
Matt Roberts
Yeah, I think I had just gotten my orange belt as a student. And so I was probably a year and a half in, if I remember correctly. And then yeah, that was when, so it was 2013 when I became an instructor.
Had you ever taught anything before? No, but I had been in sales leadership. I mean, at that point I was already a sales manager.
So I'd coached and led sales teams. I wasn't very good at it. I mean, I was still young and mid thirties.
I had an ego, but no, that was kind of my first experience of like teaching, you know, and that's where, you know, the phase A experience of learning to teach was so valuable. And I had great phase A instructors, man. Like, you know, I kind of, maybe it was the, you know, I'm the one that tells the like junior stories and junior, and I had Michael Margolin and had Christian and all of those folks.
So I just, I learned a lot of great skills and learn how to teach and learn how to create energy in a class. And I probably came back from LA a little too amped up for North Texas. You know, I probably dropped one too many F-bombs coming back, you know, but again, live and learn.
Joel Ellenbecker
And yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I mean, I think it's so cool because this isn't the standard for, I mean, now that you've been in jujitsu, I'm sure you've traveled to different jujitsu gyms and you can see like there's a of all martial arts, right?
Like just because someone says they're karate black belt, doesn't mean the same thing, you know, from city to city, from school to school, or, you know, same thing with Krav and jujitsu, but not all organizations spend as much time teaching their instructors how to teach. And in jujitsu, I see this a lot, actually, where jujitsu guys are like, they're teaching, but it's just because they've been doing it for a long time. They didn't go through any course, they don't have any certification.
It doesn't mean they're not amazing at jujitsu. It doesn't mean that they're not like an okay coach, but they literally have spent almost no time learning how to be a better teacher. And I think that's, what's so great about our courses.
It's like, here's a template. Here's a framework. Here's what to work off of.
And I've used the temp that like our teaching template to like teach my kids stuff.
Matt Roberts
Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker
It works for everything.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. It's funny. Yeah.
When I do teach jujitsu occasionally, I'll use our template. Same. Yeah.
It's crazy that it resonates with people.
Joel Ellenbecker
Okay. So you became an instructor and then along the way you said you kind of like got a little stuck. We're feeling maybe a little bit bored, wanted something new and shiny.
And then what, like, so what made you want to go do jujitsu? So I wasn't, so yes, that's a great question.
Matt Roberts
So how I actually got into jujitsu was, um, Phase C. So I had, uh, junior Christian. And obviously that's when a lot of the ground curriculum is kind of introduced.
A lot of the grappling curriculum was introduced and I could, again, I could execute the techniques, but I don't remember which one said it, but one of them said, you know, like, Hey man, if you want to get really proficient with this, you know, and that's what good instructors should do is you need to like get a grappling coach. And that just like, I don't know something about that kind of resonated with me. Um, I had already taken a few grappling seminars cause I was trying to get ready for phase C, um, done some ground seminars and stuff, but I just really started to want to understand the ground fighting better.
You know, like we have techniques, but I, again, my, the way my brain works is like, I needed to understand the, like, how did I get here? What do I do if this doesn't actually work? How could I have not gotten here?
And so that's what sort of motivated me to start looking at jujitsu. Um, so that was probably 2015 timeframe. Um, again, I over-researched everything.
So I found the grappling gym, um, that, uh, wasn't really sport based. We, we, we compete, but we're not a sport based like jujitsu gym. A lot of former military cops, uh, my professor is a fifth degree black belt.
He was former special operations. He was the first black belt in special operations. Shout out to Alan Shambara.
Um, and so it was very much like his whole mentality was get on top, stay on top. That's awesome. If you're on bottom, figure out a way to get on top, stay on top.
Um, and so it was more of like a self, I don't want to say it was self-defense minded, but it was more of a combat minded jujitsu. Yeah, that's great. And so I just felt like that style of jujitsu went better with my Krav Maga.
And so that's kind of what led me to do that. So it was a combination of like wanting to become a better Krav instructor with the grappling curriculum and the ground curriculum. And then also just my own personal desire to like understand that area of the fight better.
Um, and then, yeah, so that's how I got into jujitsu. And I remember, I remember like the first experience I had is my blue belt exam. And I've been doing jujitsu for a few years at this point.
And I remember like during my test, I got like a sweet, beautiful arm bar. At least that's the way I remember it being beautiful. And I'm laying there like admiring my work and Christian yelling at me like, this isn't freaking jujitsu get up.
And I'm like, oh, I completely forgot to get back to my feet. But it was great because I needed that reminder to be like, yeah, this isn't jujitsu, you know? And so now I even take that into my jujitsu now is that I like a lot of times when I'm rolling, I think about like, I'm in a dominant position or I'm not what are the dangers here?
What could I be doing here? So I try to kind of, you know, not always lose sight of the fact that someday, you know, a fight might go to the ground. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah. No, I think that's super important. I mean, if we go back to the roots, it's like, um, you know, Amy was a boxer and a wrestler and like he trained in so many different that someday, you know, a fight might go to the ground.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's super important. I mean, if we go back to the roots, it's like, um, you know, Amy was a boxer and a wrestler. And like, he, he trained in so many different things.
And through that training, that's how he kind of uncovered, discovered, codified the system of problem. And I think that traditional martial arts, like karate or Taekwondo, or, you know, like things like that, if they get too insular, and they don't look at and examine other things, I think that can be dangerous from a self defense aspect. It doesn't mean that they're not going to, you know, become great athletes or develop awesome life skills or whatever like that.
But it's like, if we're really looking at like, can I protect myself, and we're just not even thinking about ground fighting, like, that's not a reality that we want to live in. And I mean, I experienced it over the weekend with you where it's like, because you've branched out and gotten educated and gotten experience, it's like now there's elements and things that you might be able to bring back and that we might be able to integrate to keep people safer on the ground to get them back to their feet as fast as they can. So I think it's I think it's cool.
I think I have some similar motivations of why I did it. Somehow I got really lucky. I've heard I've talked to other people where it's like, through their experience, they ended up, you know, like, grappling with somebody at a course, who did jujitsu.
And they were just like, Oh, my gosh, like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Somehow, that never happened to me. Like, I got all the way to black belt.
And I was just like, okay, I kind of want to do jujitsu now. And I had done it earlier. And so it was it was fun for me to get back into and, you know, the way to like, test myself and push myself.
And I think that one of the benefits of it is we can I mean, we can keep training Krav and but it's like high impact. And, you know, like there's punching and striking and all this stuff where it's like with grappling, if done right, like we can keep doing it without, you know, risk of injury, even though I've gotten injured a bunch of jiu jitsu. Yeah, me too.
There's something different about where it's like, it just feels like it's a sustainable way to keep training. And I think an intermixing of the both is what can be best for self defense for sure.
Matt Roberts
Yeah, I know the biggest impact that jiu jitsu has had on my Krav Maga is probably in like my decision making, like, I feel like I process information in the middle of it, like, you know, in the middle of a situation faster than I did before, I have way better control of my body than I, you know, ever did before jiu jitsu. And then I just like, I don't get too worked up. I mean, that is, I mean, I'm kind of at that point now where I did some of the feedback for my black belt test.
It's like, you didn't look like you were really like, you could have done more. And Kelly, like Kelly, you know, been with me, or I've trained under Kelly for a while now. And she's like, that's just the way he is like, that's like, you're not gonna get him worked up.
And I just feel like that's a byproduct of jiu jitsu. Because, you know, I've been in really, really bad spots in jiu jitsu. And you just kind of learn to get comfortable with it.
Yeah. I also train in a gym that doesn't have AC and in North Texas in the summer with no AC, it's 82 degrees and 80% humidity.
Joel Ellenbecker
And you just kind of learn to embrace the sock, you know, as they say, so on that's, that's, you know, I mean, a lot of Hickson, Gracie's philosophy and his, you know, his two books, his recent one is comfort in darkness. Right. And I think that's, that's definitely something that can be uncovered through that training.
Yeah. Okay. One more thing about jiu jitsu, since we're still talking about it.
I think you have a lot more unique perspective. And I talked to Christian a little bit about this when he was on you know, there's a lot of people out there who I think they, this is kind of, you know, unveloping for me, but I think they look at Krav and they look at the people who are like, we'll just fix it with violence. And they don't have any Krav experience or knowledge.
And they see us like me striking and like, you know, doing all this stuff and they're like, well, that'll never work. Right. So as somebody who has experience of both, like, what are your thoughts around that?
Matt Roberts
Yeah. I mean, I I've gotten to where, you know, I, it's not as bad as it used to be, but, you know, I had to take a lot of the, Oh, you guys just groin kick and I poke jokes, you know, in the ground and, you know, I would just laugh it off and, you know, whatever. But now most of the guys that I roll with and train with, they know, I mean, they, they understand that, you know, there's things in Krav Maga that, you know, that they don't have a grasp of.
You know, it's, so I, I think what's entertaining about that whole conversation is, is all you really need to do is just kind of roll with somebody and then just like, you know, give them a little nose squeeze or a little booping ear or something like that. And be like, Hey, you're in a pretty bad spot right here. If this was for real.
So, but then there's the flip side of that where like, you know, a lot of times when I'm teaching ground classes in Krav, you know, I'll have, like I had a student the other day and she was like, I just don't feel like, you know, this technique is working for me. She's like, could I just like, I poke here or do something? And I'm like, yeah, that's Krav Maga, but understand what you're asking, right?
Like, what is an eye poke? You know, is that going to end the fight? No, it's a space creator, right?
So if you've got somebody in a tight side mount and you're trying to get out, well, the good news is that person's not punching you, but if you decide to stick your thumb in their eye and they post up, that's the space you needed to get your knee across to go to your kickoff from the guard. I think it goes kind of both ways. You know, it's like sometimes when we're doing ground and Krav because we're not doing the, you know, the striking or the eye pokes or the groins, whatever the techniques can be difficult.
And I think it's helping students understand that it's like, look, you've got somebody that's laying on top of you and they don't want you to get out. It's pretty hard to get out. Right.
I mean, you've experienced that for sure. I have. Now if somebody, and that's why if they're trying to punch you, then they're creating space.
So it's like understanding it from both perspectives. So, but yeah, at this point, man, I just, I feel sorry for those that only trained Jiu Jitsu and, you know, don't have any striking. I mean, you know, it was even like Jocko used to always say that, like, I think like I heard him say on a podcast once it was like, you need to be able to deal with somebody if they grab you and you also need to be able to like know how to hit somebody.
So, you know, that's why I think, you know, Muay Thai elbows and hammer fists and punches is such an important part of Krav Maga.
Joel Ellenbecker
I love that point about, you know, I had a person I was talking to one time and I think they knew I was into self-defense instructing and stuff like that, but maybe not the depth of it. And they're there, we're having a conversation like, oh yeah, if something, you know, someone ever tried to attack me or anything, I would just like grab their neck and snap their neck. I was like literally thinking, I was like, I was like, I don't know, like, I don't know if that's possible.
I don't know if I could do that. And I train all the time and this was like a smaller female or whatever, but I'm just tying that to the like, oh yeah, if I'm in side mount and I can't get out, I'll just poke them in the eye. And then that'll, that'll be the I win button.
And it's, it's not. And I think what I've learned even more through training Jiu Jitsu and doing ground fighting, it's like, I do not want to be on the ground with some, with, with anybody, like the environment, the, you know, a curb, other people kicking me in the head, a weapon, like that kind of stuff. Or even just the fact that like, I mean, you, you kind of look like a tough dude, but there's like Mikey Musumechi's out there where it's like, you look at it, you're like, I don't like, I don't think that guy would know anything.
And he could just like tear my leg off my body if he wanted. Right. So it's like, you never know what somebody is capable of on the ground.
And I think being able to yes, poke them in the eye, then execute a technique and get to our feet, combining those things, I think is where the power is.
Matt Roberts
Well, there was a, I don't remember who posted it, but it was on social media when YouTube a week or two ago, but it was, they rolled like in a gym, they rolled on a beach, they rolled in grass, they rolled on gravel. And then the last thing they did is they rolled on the pavement. And it was just kind of interesting to watch like how the role sort of changed as the, you know, the, the environment got harsher.
And I was watching the like them rolling on the concrete. And I just like, I cringed through the whole thing, just thinking about like, about that.
Joel Ellenbecker
I'm like, there's no way you want to be down on the concrete rolling around with somebody. Well, and then a whole nother conversation that we don't need to dive into now is it's like, okay, a lot of our system is used for law enforcement and military, like, that's where we get the most people call, like, they call john up, and they're like, Hey, I use this and save my life. And it's like, are there applications to jiu jitsu on the ground?
Yes. But then when you have a gun belt, and you have a suspect, and like, there's all this stuff going on, it's like, we still just want to get to our feet as fast as safely as we can.
Matt Roberts
Well, I got a quick story related to that. So years ago, in our gym, my jiu jitsu gym that trained at, we had a law enforcement that came in, he was switching gyms, because the gym that he had been at was a sport focused gym, where they were training takedowns, like we train a lot of takedowns at our gym. And he was it was a guard pulling gym, you know, and so for those that know jiu jitsu, they probably know what that is.
And he literally got into it with a suspect and pulled guard. And in all that kit that you just described, he was basically on his back with a guy that weighed him 100 pounds, and he couldn't get out from under now. You know, he survived the experience.
But it was enough. You know, that was an ignition moment for him to change gyms completely.
Joel Ellenbecker
So Wow, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I love I love when people share stories about like, how they basically have learned in real real time or firsthand of like, wow, how this can be so valuable. So I had a student one time, where he probably had too much to drink, he had some friends over at his place.
And, you know, up here in Wisconsin, we can get a lot of snow can get really cold. So his buddy was like going out to like move his truck or something. And he ended up getting stuck, like in the mud or the snow on the side of the road.
And my friend was probably doing you know, the guy thing was just like kind of making fun of him poking out a little bit. And he grabbed a student of mine, he grabbed a shovel, and he was going over to like offer him the shovel so he could like dig his way out. And the guy grabbed the shovel and like was pissed and hit him in the face with it.
And so he cracked him with the shovel. And he immediately shot a double leg takedown. shot a double leg takedown like my student who got hit in the face shot doubly takedown got on top, recomposed himself and then got up and got away.
But it's like, and we didn't even I mean, that was before I was training jujitsu. That was just because double legs are in Krav Maga. And we had trained that it was in him.
And it came out of him. And what I thought was so neat about that is it's like, if he would have had to fight there, and he just got hit in the face with a shovel, he's not going to be able to fight standing up. Right?
Like he's rocked, you know, like it's not going to go well. But he was able to use this thing that's in his toolbox to reset the fight. And like, I don't know all the details.
He didn't share all of it. But maybe he realized like, oh, we don't need to fight. And he was able to hold him and control him so he could get back up to his feet.
Right? But if that was a fight for his life, he at least would have been in a position where he could, you know, get back in the fight.
Matt Roberts
Yeah, absolutely compose himself to get back. That's awesome.
Joel Ellenbecker
Okay, so when you heard about the black belt training weekend, because this is a totally new thing that we that we tried out. What were your initial thoughts when you heard that we were doing that?
Matt Roberts
So that I mean, obviously, I want to be a part of it. I mean, any any experience to get to train with CJ, to me is an opportunity. I didn't mention it earlier, but I was actually super fortunate.
I did my phase B. I did the apprentice be with CJ in Houston. Oh, wow.
That was my thing. He's only ran like a couple of courses, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So real quick, funny story. So I went to LA for phase B, I was about three days into it. And I guess I brought a gift for my children.
I had pink guy, my son, and gave it to me. I didn't know it. So it showed up when in LA.
And they're like now and you can't read you got to go home. So I wasn't able to finish my phase B. So a few months later, I did an apprentice be in Houston with CJ.
And so I got that exposure. And I remember coming back from LA telling Hicks like, man, like this dude knows Krav Maga. Like, I don't know what's going on down there, but they know stuff.
And so yeah, that was kind of my first exposure. And then like I mentioned earlier, I trained with his guys, you know, when I was traveling for work. And then after the pistol course, I just was like, man, I want to get back down there and do more.
I mentioned earlier, the whole concept of vertical learning. I, that was what I, it was everything I thought it was going to be. And that's what like my expectations kind of going into it where like, I don't know what I'm going to learn, but I know whatever I learn, it's going to be at a deeper level than what I knew before.
Joel Ellenbecker
So yeah, that's great. And you know, for me, when I was looking at like, what are we offering? What are we doing?
Like black belts, getting together and training is probably not a new thing. I'm sure that they did that a lot in LA when, when they have, you know, they have a lot of them right there. But like us pulling all levels of black belts from all around the country or the world into one spot to just like train and sharpen each other.
Like it goes back to that thing. It's like, if we're not training and we're not getting better and we're not pushing the envelope, we're not going to be inspired. We're not gonna be motivated.
We're not gonna be connected. So I think that's a big part of what I got out of it. And it was a, you know, a cherry on the top to like, when we came in for the second Don review, cause that for me, like I did that.
So I did second back in like 2018 to see me and like Mike and DJ and guys who've been through it hungry to like come back. And it's like, I want to train and I want to get better. And I want to refine myself.
I think there's a culture shift that's happening. Whereas before it had been like, well, I've already done that. I've already been certified or even this, like, well, I don't want to be exposed.
I don't want people to see that I'm a little rusty or, you know, whatever, like, and it's so encouraging for me to see like, some of that stuff is like falling away and changing.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. Yep. And, and, and those guys are just named, I mean, in yourself included to, to be open to, to learning more.
And I know we had discussions on, you know, different things when we were doing weapons on the ground and stuff like that. And yeah, I just, I was super inspired by the whole experience. And then also just to get to know everybody.
I mean, again, I mentioned earlier, like, I think a community is stronger than an individual and communities happen when people have relationships and relationships can either, you know, you always said, you know, it can sales, like, you know, relationships with your customers happen, you know, over drinks or golf or whatever. I think in our world, you know, relationships happen when you're training together, you're sweating together, you know, and yeah. And then dinners afterwards and things like that.
Joel Ellenbecker
So yeah, I thought it was awesome. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think I greeted you when we first got there.
I was like, Hey, you're that Matt guy from Dallas. I've heard a bunch about her. I said something like that.
You're like, Oh, I hope it was good stuff. Yeah.
Matt Roberts
You caught me, caught me on a little guard. I'm like, Oh no, what have I done?
Joel Ellenbecker
So, but yeah, no, it was awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
It was super cool. So you had mentioned that you've done a lot of other handgun training and certifications and things like that. So when we launched the handgun expert, it's actually a series, like we've just done one.
And I think we've had two goes at it, a small group that went through the first one. And then you were part of the second group. And now later this year in September, I believe we're going to do another handgun one and I'm finally going to get to go do it.
So I haven't even done it yet. I'm hoping to bring myself and, you know, a few of our other instructors, my wife, hopefully, um, to go through the course, but what made you want to go to the handgun course? Was it because you heard CJ was teaching it or like, you just liked that stuff.
And then what, like, what did you feel like you took away from it?
Matt Roberts
Yeah. So, uh, I mean, I liked that stuff. I love to shoot.
Um, I've done a lot of like, you know, tactical combat shooting for, for years. Um, and I just wanted to see kind of how, um, the two could match. Right.
I mean, so again, kind of back to that vertical learning piece. Um, and I, and I'm pretty proficient. I was pretty proficient, but I picked up some things that I hadn't considered.
Um, and again, I think it was just kind of CJ's way of communicating information. Uh, what I really appreciate and admire about his methodology is like, he helps you self-discover, um, you know, the way he presents information, ask questions. And so for me, it was a lot of self-discovery that got me thinking about what I had learned, questioning what I learned.
Um, and, and then again, I just came back and like, I immediately came back that next week and just started repping stuff. Cause I'm like, I got it. Like, you know, so many light bulbs went off.
Um, and then, yeah, I mean, range time, you know, like for me, it's like, Hey, this course is free and I get to go shoot on the range. All I gotta do is bring my, uh, sign me up. So yeah, it was awesome.
It was a, it was a great course. I'm super excited about, um, the next one. Um, and we'll absolutely, you know, whenever we get a, uh, a second one on, or number two on the, on the schedule, I will be there.
Joel Ellenbecker
That's cool. Yeah. For what's exciting for me to go do the course is that, well, you know, when we've been talking about it, it's like, okay, there's Krav Maga and then there's Jiu Jitsu and then there's, there's shooting and then there's coaching.
And then like, there's like all these things, but the way that CJ has described it to me and what I'm hearing from you guys who've gone through and come back, cause it's like shooting isn't shooting. It's Krav Maga with a gun in your hand. And I'm like, Oh, that's awesome.
And like that, I think even though, or even the ground fighting and the Jiu Jitsu that you and I've been talking about, it's like for us, like, yeah, it's Jiu Jitsu, but also it's just Krav Maga with more ground fighting. It's like, we're using that to go deeper and to go more vertical versus like the jack of all trades, getting pulled into a bunch of different directions. And to your point about CJ helping self-discover I'm the type of guy where it's like, if, if someone's got credentials or experience, or I've seen them be successful, they could just tell me what to do and I'll do it.
Like I'll just, you know, I'll how high do you want me to jump? I'll do it. But I think what's cooler is that when we get stuck or we don't quite understand something, we're not actually going, well, this is what CJ said because of the way that CJ like asked those questions, like you're saying, we're actually going, well, this is what I understand based on what I've experienced or what I've thought about.
And then it's easier. Like it, it just feels so much more powerful to navigate that.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. Well, and when I'm again, kind of going back to the course for me, what, what are my motivations to go there? And I always did kind of feel like, you know, civilian Krav Maga didn't answer this for me.
You know, I live in Texas. We, we have a lot of guns in Texas. I carry a handgun.
I've usually got a handgun on me 98% of my life. You know, if I'm out and about, I've got a handgun on it. And a lot of the, you know, civilian Krav Maga that I kind of came up under the instructor, I always had that in the back of my mind, you know, like, well, if I pluck and step to a certain direction, well, I just exposed my handgun.
Right. Or if I do this, you know, what, what impact is that going to have with the handgun? And so when I getting the opportunity to kind of see those two together and to your point, you know, now it's Krav Maga with a handgun and stem based approach to like Krav Maga.
So, yeah, that's, that was kind of my motivation. And then also my big takeaways and it's kind of just gotten me reevaluating a lot of what I thought, you know, from what I'd learned before, you know, with different Navy SEALs and special operations. And I've trained with a lot of those different guys over the years.
And the other, the other crazy thing is, is if you train with those guys, they all have different opinions. Yeah. That's all it is.
It's their opinions. And then, you know, to actually see it from a system based approach that fits a system that I'm familiar with was, was super impactful.
Joel Ellenbecker
Yeah. I think that's so cool. Cause it's like, well, I don't want to change my choke from the front defense so that I can use my handgun.
I want my choke from the front defense to work with my handgun or, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is in the system. I want my knife defense to be able to work with my handgun. So yeah, I'm really excited to dive into that.
I know that that's an area I've done a little bit, I've dabbled here and there but it's definitely an area that I want to, I want to dive into more. So I'm excited that we're offering that. Yeah.
Okay. So yeah, I think overall the, the crop, the, the black belt weekend was like a big success. Like we had new black belts, like yourself, like you've had almost a year jump in.
You've had people who've, you know, been black belts for over a decade, jump in. We all got to, to learn and grow. Shout out to Kelly.
Kelly was hitting reps.
Matt Roberts
That was awesome to see. I love that in work, man. I was like, that was fun to see Kelly training like that.
Joel Ellenbecker
The only thing I don't love about it is that I was her partner for a bunch of crap out of me. She had this like joy in her eyes when she was hitting me. Like it's sometimes a little scary.
Yeah. Yeah. I did not get, I did not partner with Kelly.
Matt Roberts
So it was fun to watch those of you that did.
Joel Ellenbecker
So yeah, it was great. It was, it was so cool. She's, she's so awesome.
I mean, like it's decades and decades of doing Krav Maga and like, what I think is so neat about like her and like what, you know, what I've noticed is like, I get a lot out of teaching a class. I get out a lot out of like, if we do a seminar weekend, like, like I learned, even though I'm like teaching and giving, like I learned a lot, but then to do these like instructor courses for seven days or five days year after year, and you know, dozens of courses a year, it's like how, how much she gets to see and how deep she gets to go. Like when I like, you know, more recently, cause I've been more involved, like I've jumped into phase a I've jumped into a black belt three, four.
I'm like, man, there's so much more I can refine and so much I can get better. And it's like, she's seeing that has been doing that for so long. So we're so fortunate to have someone with that kind of commitment.
Matt Roberts
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And, and just, I mean, the it's obvious how much she cares about the instructors just based off of like the volume of travel she does.
I mean, I've been in sales for 25 years and I've traveled a lot for work and you either, you have to be really passionate about something to want to do that grind. Right. So yeah, I think it's awesome that she's willing to sacrifice like that.
So love Kelly Kim for sure. That's awesome.
Joel Ellenbecker
Well, Matt, I really appreciate your time today. I appreciate you being willing to discuss all of the things. What's what's next for you?
What are you excited about?
Matt Roberts
Man, I I'm just continuing to train. I mean, we are, we are still training every Sunday. We're like more motivated now to continue to rep the stuff that we've been doing and learning back to training jujitsu.
So yeah, just keep training, man, and trying to get better every day. I have that whole like 1% mindset. So if I could just get better 1% every day, that's, that's kind of my ultimate goal.
Joel Ellenbecker
We'll give my best to all those guys in Dallas and I'm sure we're going to cross paths again soon, man.
Matt Roberts
I hope so. Thank you, Joel.
Joel Ellenbecker
All right. Thank you, Matt.
