Episode 15: Inside the Seminar that is RESHAPING KRAV MAGA WORLDWIDE
Joel Ellenbecker: Gerwin, so great to be speaking with you today.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, it's been love spot.
Joel Ellenbecker: Thanks. Thanks for being here.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I love talking to you. That's true.
Joel Ellenbecker:
Joel Ellenbecker: You were the first person that I met in the Krab Magawa world when I went to Europe last year and it was so cool. You showed me around the Netherlands and I got to learn a lot about the culture there and the country and I had no idea there were so many tulips. There's a lot of tulips.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, there are. And they smell lovely. And It was fun showing you around.
Joel Ellenbecker: And also,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Absolutely. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: another thing that really stood out to me was just the way that water has been used in the Netherlands.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think that the Netherlands and the Dutch people, they have been working with water and always have been challenged by water. So, we sure know what to do with it. That's also why we are working worldwide with a lot of water development on how to deal with high tides,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: whatever. Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: Makes sense.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, because I mean it was used as a defense, To keep invaders and attackers from coming into the country. but…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: then also you had to build these aqueducts to keep it out so it wouldn't flood the farms and things like that. it was really interesting. That's one of my favorite things is just learning about cultures and people and stuff. So thanks for showing me around. Great. Awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Sure.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Hope you will come again real soon.
Joel Ellenbecker: I want to come again. It was so great.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: And a big reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast today was to talk about the recent seminar that you attended with CJ and Luxembourg. but also just to have people get to know you and learn a little bit about your backstory as well. So, how did you come to Krav Magot training?
Gerwin Kranenburg: in a way it's a long but also funny story, but I will try to keep it a little bit short. so I started doing martial arts at age five.
Gerwin Kranenburg: My parents, they had a restaurant and in the restaurant there were a lot of people just coming and trying to trash the place. And my father kind of got fed up with it. And he was like, I'm going to have my entire staff trained in karate back in the days and get some street fighting in. And me and my brother, we were young. I think I was five years old. And then my father was like, "You know what? It's good for you. You also start doing it." So at that age I started doing a few years later my parents sold to play so we moved and in the other town there was no karate. So I switched to judo and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Wow.
Gerwin Kranenburg: jitsu and I did that for I think about five six years. then we moved again to a different town where there was karate.
Gerwin Kranenburg: So I switched back to karate again and then I did both semic contact and full contact karate for practically till now. and in 2003 my started teaching karate. But then when I was teaching karate, a lot of people showed up asking me "Hey, I want to learn self-defense." And I had been training karate my entire life. But to be honest, I felt a little bit awkward in telling them "Okay, what? You can just follow karate classes." I was like, "Okay, it is a martial art, but is it a really streetbased self-defense system?
Gerwin Kranenburg: I honestly could not say So I started looking around and I pretty soon ended up with KF Magga and I think I took me about two years going from organization to organization attending all different kinds of seminars to finally end up with KMW which appealed to me the most. I like the system. I like the way…
Gerwin Kranenburg: how everything was written down, explained, the manuals, they were detailed. It was a wellthought through system. So yeah, so that's…
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: how I ended up first training Kofta and then bringing it to my gym and started teaching it.
Joel Ellenbecker:
Joel Ellenbecker: That's great. Yeah, we've talked a little bit before and I've said this before on the podcast too that I have a karate background and I had a really similar experience where it's like I had trained my whole life in martial arts and…
Joel Ellenbecker: people would even say your karate doesn't mean anything or this or that and I think that's totally wrong. I mean, I had a wicked sidekick and a great straight punch and I probably had,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: a much better shot of defending myself than somebody, who had no training at all, but for me, it was like the specifics of somebody trying to strangle me or put me in a headlock or hold me or what if, we really didn't talk about weapons defenses at all or…
Gerwin Kranenburg: No. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: multiple attackers or what if there's two people. It's like I'm not going to challenge him to a one-on-one duel, right? So,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. For me,…
Joel Ellenbecker: so the reality yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: For me, the biggest challenge what I encountered after I started doing craft and combining it with the traditional martial arts, it ended up doing belt testing where I had to do a self-defense demonstration for it was my fifth degree black belt. And then the teacher was like, "Nope, that's not what I want to see. I want to see a straight stab and then the knife stays there." I was like, " that's not reality. Nope, but that's the self-defense we want to
Gerwin Kranenburg: And I was like, "No, I don't want to do this." That's where I totally switched. no, I like the fighting. I like everything the traditional martial arts brought me. it most definitely sped up my learning curve.
Gerwin Kranenburg: U, but at the same time, I think the portion of the martial arts, it kind of well, and the competition part took over. And for me it missed reality. But still I think combining everything I mean the system craft mai it is a mixture of everything of all the traditional martial arts together taking away etiquette and taking it down to the most basic elements. I think that's what I like most.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: I think it's I don't know human nature or natural that things just like kind of get watered down over time. I mean how far back can we trace our karate roots and our taekwondo roots and it's like this really long game of telephone…
Joel Ellenbecker: where some master hundreds of years ago was like this is how we do it this is how we do it and every instructor and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: every organization or group has a different level of dedication to their learning. So at some chink in the chain or…
Gerwin Kranenburg: absolutely. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: in the armor at some point there was someone who just didn't dive as deep but they then passed on the knowledge so over time that quality kind of evaporates and…
Joel Ellenbecker: then like you said it's like I want you to do a straight stat with your arm out. why? Because that's how we do it. And …
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: at least here in America, that was one of the most frustrating things to hear as a child from a parent is like, why should I do this? Because I said so. And it's like, okay, all right, but why?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. And to be honest, that's also one of the things I like in my gym.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I challenge my students whether it's the youth program where it's the six-year-old challenge me. Come on,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. That's so cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: ask me questions. Try to get me to not give an Just come up with questions and Test everything. And that's what I like the most. And whether it's going to be in the gym, whether it's going to be instructor training, I think that's the most important part where people start growing.
Gerwin Kranenburg: If they challenge the system, they start asking questions and if they get the answers where they are like light bulb it goes on I understand that's where progress is being made. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I agree.
Joel Ellenbecker: And I definitely experienced it coming up through the instructor courses of this kind of idea that at least CJ's underlined it for me and now it's explicit. It's like I need to prove it to myself. And I think that's what you're saying too is students need to prove it to themselves. If they don't understand, asking the questions to themsel and going deeper and trying to gain ownership over it is what's going to give them…
Joel Ellenbecker: what they truly need, that confidence to be able to use it. Because I mean, it's as simple as an app on a phone or a power tool or something. If I don't know how to use it and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. No,…
Joel Ellenbecker: I don't believe in it, I'm not going to use it. And for self-defense,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: I …
Joel Ellenbecker:
Joel Ellenbecker: that can't be the case. It's like if I don't know why I'm doing something, I need to figure it out. Otherwise, if I find myself in that situation, I'm going to be stuck.
Gerwin Kranenburg: yeah. Absolutely. I'm totally on the same page there. And that's also why I love working with CJ because he is emphasizing the same stuff over and over again.
Gerwin Kranenburg: He's always asking questions and even if you ask him a question he will reply with a question like okay you can ask me a question…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: but what do you think and he just puts you to thinking and I think I've been working with CJ and you for at least since a year and a half two years now and I know it has changed my teaching at the same time I have been asking way more questions to my students and to my instructors And if they ask a question, I will reply with a question. So
Joel Ellenbecker: And what's neat about it, I think I might have said this before in a different episode or something, but I'm the type of person where I'm like, "Just give me the answer." I just want to know. But I appreciate it's like CJ could totally give me the answer. And I could give the answer to some of my students and asking that question like you're saying gets them to think for themselves.
Joel Ellenbecker: And that's the old adage of …
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: teach a man to fish, right? It's like then they can provide for themselves for a lifetime versus here's some fish and then it's like now I'm gone what are you going to do right and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: I think that's what's going to help preserve what we talked about with the karate and taekwondo over the centuries getting watered down. It's like if we have leaders and thinkers who are asking questions like you are in your classes and getting students to think for themselves it's going to give a way deeper understanding than just like we'll do this because I said so.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And to be honest, I mean today I had some youth belt testing and in advance I always have an open registration. People can just sign up for okay I want to do some belt testing. They can ask my permission but I'm always telling them okay you want to do your test why?
Gerwin Kranenburg: And if they say, I'm ready." Okay,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: do you think you're ready? They need to explain to me why they think they're ready. And some of them are like, "Can't you just tell me"Hey, I want you to do a bell testing because I think that they are ready." I'm like, "No, I want it to come from you. You have to be ready. You have to be convinced about yourself. It's not my word." And that's I think the biggest difference from my past in traditional martial arts. then you were training and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: then your teacher would come to you okay I think you're ready to do your next test and there was I can do my test but I'm like nope I'm turning it around I want you to tell me okay I want to do the test and then explain to me okay why do you want it
Joel Ellenbecker: I love That's so cool. And I think sometimes talking about the watering down and, the just feeding people answers makes it sound like maybe traditional martial arts aren't valuable.
Joel Ellenbecker: And I totally disagree. I gained so much value from traditional martial arts. And I think one of them is my ability to control my body, So it's like if I learn a new technique, I can apply it right away. So, people who are u maybe listening or who have that traditional martial arts background,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: it does pay dividends. It does help a lot and there's some things that are missing that need to be added in.
Gerwin Kranenburg: yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree…
Gerwin Kranenburg: because I think for instance the controlling your body is most important. at the same time having respect for your teacher having respect for your training partner all that stuff I think is so insanely important.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yes.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I know youth for instance I know when the kids come in they are over excited…
Gerwin Kranenburg: because they can finally train.
Gerwin Kranenburg: So they run into my gym, they start taking off their clothes, throwing it away, and just running into the room like, "Okay, I'm ready for training." And then sometimes you will see the parents walking behind their kids picking up their stuff.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yep. That's all finished.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And I will tell them, "No, leave it." And then I will just address the kids "Okay, I saw the big mess. I'm just going to give one minute and then I want everything to be cleaned up. It's your responsibility, not your parents." And then the parents are looking and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: then the kids they just rush out of the room and within a minute everything is folded up in the locker room and everything is neat and the parents look I didn't know they can fold. teach them
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: And that's the power of a mentor that they respect. And I mean, I'm a white belt in parenting right now. I've got a six and a seven-year-old, but it's really cool to be on the other side and look and it's like as a parent I can teach and…
Joel Ellenbecker: help and give them and if they have mentors like a Gerwin or somebody that they can go to who's reinforcing what I want as a parent and giving them additional support and ways to look like it's so cool I mean when I was growing up I will do anything to get my instructor to like me and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: and that ended up turning into me developing respect and discipline and focus and leadership and all these other qualities.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, I totally agree. I think in a way the entire society is changing. You can see people they just want it and they want it now. And it's also with the youth but also the adults. It's going to be like there's going to be belt testing. I want to go for the next belt. And then after a few months there's another belt test. I want to go for the next chasing belts? That's not the goal.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And that's one of the things I have some of my kids,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: even the older ones that are 15, 16, 17 that are having a big mouth to their parents. They're like, I want to do a bell testing. not as long as I don't hear anything positive from your parents. And they're like,…
Joel Ellenbecker: that's Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: What do you mean? just what I'm telling cleaning up You start picking up groceries. Do whatever your parents need. Assist them. And if they're like, I don't know what happened, but now I have a different kid. Then Then I'm allowing you to do a belt testing. I think it's so much more.
Joel Ellenbecker: I think it is. And I think, for adults, it's most of the time it's either I want to get in shape or I need to learn how to protect myself. those are the things.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: And with kids, a lot of times we're whoa, that looks cool. I want to be a ninja turtle or, whatever. and for both kids and…
Joel Ellenbecker: adults, it starts with those things, but then it's a vehicle for life transformation.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep. Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: It's a way to embody becoming our highest and best selves. And that's, why I've dedicated my life to self-defense and martial arts is because of how empowering it can be and how much greatness is unleashed essentially for individuals. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I totally agree. I think in a way that's also why I think it's so important that and I'm going to build a little bridge to the seminar because you mentioned you want to talk about the seminar why it's so important that people go to seminars and start working with different instructors that have a different level of knowledge and also for existing instructors I mean like myself and my instructors that went to the seminar I think it is so important to expose yourself but also don't be afraid
Gerwin Kranenburg: Okay, if I'm going there and someone points out something, it's okay to make mistakes. At least I want to make mistakes. I want someone to tell me "Hey, you can improve here." I'm like, glad I can work on something." And I think that's so important.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And I think that's universal. A lot of people, they stop exposing themselves to new insights because it's scary. Because what…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: When I Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: if Yeah. What?
Joel Ellenbecker: I think that people don't like sometimes when they start out. I mean, I've had students who are like, "Give me all the feedback." It's not everyone, right? But there is a good chunk of students when they first start out where it's hard for them to receive feedback. They don't really like feedback and then they grow through the system. But fast forward that to where I am and where you are and have been. It's like then we get to the point where we're the leader of a school and nobody's giving us feedback. And it's like all I want is I want to get better.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: I want to keep learning. And then I think it's a really slippery slope if we don't go out and do seminars. if we don't go out and do continuous education and continual training to then get stuck with I don't want people to see me mess up and it's like even from time to time I still like man I wish I didn't screw up there but at the end of it it's like I'm just grateful that someone is able to tell me and point things out to me and show me how to get better because it's a perishable skill and if we're not constantly training we're going to backslide a little bit and we need those nuggets of feedback and constructive criticism to keep pushing
Joel Ellenbecker: and to keep getting better.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. I think it's so important that people keep doing it.
Joel Ellenbecker: …
Gerwin Kranenburg: They have to start doing it and have to keep doing it. And not only for instructors but also for students, for everyone. And if I Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: and …
Gerwin Kranenburg: go ahead.
Joel Ellenbecker: I was going to say the seminar thing like is…
Joel Ellenbecker: how you got started with Crabman Worldwide, So, it's like you said you're like,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: I was looking for some organizations and then I went to a seminar. So, do you remember who your first seminar was with? wow.
Gerwin Kranenburg: my very first seminar within KMW that was Cherry Fiat. he first had his own organization but he signed up with KMW and then from KMW the first seminar was with Darren in Belgium. Yep. Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's amazing.
Gerwin Kranenburg: That was a crazy seminar. Darren was there back in the days. John Whitman was there.
Gerwin Kranenburg: So, we had a lot of people showing up. was a big seminar, big turnout, and it was amazing. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's so cool.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I've gotten the chance to be on the mat with Darren just a handful of times and his energy and passion and the deep knowledge and wisdom that he has and…
Joel Ellenbecker: the way he blends that with the work he did, as a district attorney, just such an incredible experience. Do you remember was there anything that really stood out to you or…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: absolutely. …
Joel Ellenbecker: you were at that center this is why I'm with KMW …
Gerwin Kranenburg: the seminar by itself was amazing because there were so many people coming from all over the world. even may rest in peace Kokushi from Japan he came over so people from the US we had a lot of people from the entire Europe showing up so it was the Netherlands Belgium France Spain Poland we had from I would say almost practically every country there were people so that was amazing I think that was one of the first times that I actually went to a seminar…
Joel Ellenbecker: that's so cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: where so many different nationalities
Gerwin Kranenburg: He showed up at one event.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker:
Joel Ellenbecker: And so at that point you were teaching karate, you went to seminars, you got connected with Kra Worldwide, you went to a Darren seminar. Were you already in the instructor development program? Were you already teaching Kar maga?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: when Darren came to Europe, I already passed my face ABC. so I was, an official lency from I was the first one in Europe that signed up with kind of proud of that one. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: But I loved everything about it and I am so grateful for everything that's happening right now and all the changes that are currently going on…
Gerwin Kranenburg: because in a way there is the system where you're going through and you go from the face training, the instructor training to the expert series, then to the black belt program, the other expert series, you do the law enforcement, you do the kids program and then it's like, okay, I did everything and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yep. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: there's going to be okay, Hey, there's going to be an extra layer which is so exciting because it's not like okay you did everything now it's up to you.
Gerwin Kranenburg: No, you did everything but there's a deeper layer and I like it that there are deeper layers so developing. We can still keep on growing.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: I love that. And you're just a guy for first scurwin. You were also one of the very first certified coaches with KMA worldwide.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, that's correct.
Joel Ellenbecker: And that's a new thing that we've just started offering the last year and a half. How would you say going through that program has benefited you or supported your students or tell me about that.
Gerwin Kranenburg: It has been very beneficial. to be honest, that's also what I was talking about the way I'm teaching and the way more asking questions to students about the deeper why,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: the deeper Why are we doing this stuff? Why are you doing certain things, it is building the community way stronger.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think over the past 20 years I already had a pretty strong community…
Joel Ellenbecker: right. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: but by opening practically everything up for discussion and there are no boundaries like okay this is a non-topic no if you want to talk about something it is possible and having an open mind and being non judgmental about anything I think that's priceless it is amazing Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. It's so great to hear that. And it was really neat too to be in the cohort with people who it's like I felt like for me when I was coming up through instructor training it's like I'm with this certain group of people, And you might kind of catch up to another group or someone might kind of catch up to you, but we didn't really get to see everybody that's in the community. Whereas what's cool about Courage is as long as someone's a phase certified instructor, it's like we get to meet all sorts of different people who are in the community and we're working together to learn this new skill to support people in a deeper way. And I think it's been really great for each of us as individuals, but also just for the culture of Kra Worldwide and…
Joel Ellenbecker: how we connect and communicate with each other, at least the people we're in cohort two now. So, it's been really cool to see
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: For me personally, I would recommend it to all the instructors to just do it. And even if you don't want to become like a professional coach and make a profession out of it and make money out of it, just for your personal development, I would say do it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Because I have been teaching phase to quite some instructors here in Europe and it has always been like okay we have the teaching template how to teach how to bring the program to how to break down the techniques but we always talk about okay people will put you almost on a pedestal and talk to you okay you're the instructor everything but to actually give people the tools to communicate with your students on a deeper level.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think that's one of the missing links we've had in the past which is phenomenal that's being offered right now.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I think it's so great.
Joel Ellenbecker: So great for our students, so great for our instructors and the community. it's awesome. and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: you were also in the first group of people who went to the handgun expert as well.
Gerwin Kranenburg: What kind of like do you think I want to learn stuff?
Joel Ellenbecker: We gota have Gerwin's name be Gerwin the first. That'll be your nickname. That's
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. to be honest, yeah, I did that one last year. and what I really liked about that course is also it's being brought as a complete system with the similar breakdown as we are normally training and teaching the craft system but also going through the shooting everything is being cut down to small pieces where it is easy applyable I have been a sports shooter and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: after the
Gerwin Kranenburg: Of course, I can tell you my sport shooting my scores went insanely up. So, normally in competition, I mean, we are in meters, but we are shooting like the 25 mters. that's going to be the fast distance. That's going to be a set distance.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Wow,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: And normally in competition, I would end up place 15 or 16 in competition. And for the last two competitions, I was in the top three. So I would say it is improving your skills a lot. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: that's so okay, so back to your story. you started teaching your phase ABC through you got to work with Darren. and I'm pretty sure you've either worked with or had seminars with almost all of the big names in Krab Magai and…
Joel Ellenbecker: the leaders at Kra World wide over the years, right? That's so cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, I have.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And I think they are all incredible people with an insanely amount of knowledge and I am so glad that a few weeks ago CJ showed up in Luxembourg to teach a seminar…
Gerwin Kranenburg: because I think it was mind-blowing especially bringing it down to more like the craft from God blueprint the way he was talking about the UDA loop which he talked about in previous episodes as well.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think it is so important for people to understand the deeper layers. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: I mean, I thought I knew a lot about Karaga, and I think I do know a lot about Kromaga, and it's just neat to see that there's pieces underneath that.
Joel Ellenbecker: So, let's talk about how did the seminar go? how do you think the participants liked it? How did you like it? What were some highlights for you?
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think in a way the first day and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: maybe it sounds critical, but I think it's very good that it happened. a lot of people they showed up and we're like, "Okay, this is going to be like a similar seminar that we have been attending over the past x amount of years." So, it's going to be like, "Okay, grab a tombstone pad. We're going to pound on the pad. We're going to kick the pad. We're going to work our asses off and it's going to be sweating big time. And then we'll go through all the techniques and
Joel Ellenbecker: I think that's…
Joel Ellenbecker: why maybe not even more people came is like people…
Joel Ellenbecker: who didn't know what was going on, they thought it was just going to be more of the same.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think so.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yes, absolutely. And especially I think there were several people throughout Europe and even from outside Europe that showed up for the seminar which I'm very grateful for because first of all I like seeing all the people and I like meeting old friends from hell from years back. but I think a lot of people they just were like, "Yeah, I have done the handgun. I've done the long gun. I have done the knife. I have done the active shooter attacker. I have done whatever." And they were like, "I think I know" So, a lot of the people attending, they might be a level two, maybe level three, and some instructors showing up.
Gerwin Kranenburg: But I think the people with the higher levels especially they should have been there because that would have been so insightful for them.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. We were trying to with the marketing be like,…
Joel Ellenbecker: "Look, it's going to be different. It's going to be this." And we were even like, "We'll pay you $10,000 if you don't learn anything." thing and then we're like, we'll buy your hotel,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: your ticket, whatever. We're trying to do it. But I think some things just have to be experienced, And I think that it's so cool to hear that it wasn't just the same thing again. what? so that you thought everybody kind of showed up thinking it was going to be the same thing and…
Joel Ellenbecker:
Gerwin Kranenburg: No. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: then it wasn't.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think people they heard about the advertisements and we're like, "Okay, it's going to be different." But still, it is in your mindset. It's going to be like, "Okay, it's going to be a craft seminar. That means two days of hard work and a lot of pain and suffering and we'll get through it."
Gerwin Kranenburg: And then he started talking and breaking down a lot of theory and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: just talking about it. And finally that came a flip over and he started drawing stuff on it. And so people I think were confused in the beginning what's going on? What's happening? But CJ he's I would say not a smooth talker but he is very easy with words And I think the way he breaks stuff down,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yes, great communicator.
Gerwin Kranenburg: it makes so much sense. So yeah, I must say I liked it and I think the majority of people liked it. And yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: There was eight different languages,…
Joel Ellenbecker: and when I was with you last year, I didn't know that the Dutch people learn English in school. that was something that I didn't know. and then I also learned that,…
Joel Ellenbecker: some people like you, I mean, you're talking to me almost every week and you're practicing your English, but there's probably a lot of people in your country where it's like they learned it, but they don't use it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Absolutely. Yes.
Joel Ellenbecker: So, what was interesting for me is when I was teaching, it was cool to see that they could follow along and they could understand, but also looked like it was really mentally taxing to have to translate, and go between. So, …
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: it's cool that even with eight languages, CJ was be able to break it down simply enough. And then I know Mark was there and there was probably a lot of other people there helping to translate, but it's cool to hear that what seem like these complex ideas or big thoughts don't actually have to be and it's like a physical language that we can all
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. I think that's one of the things CJ is also talking about. the craft language should be simple and should be universal.
Gerwin Kranenburg: So it shouldn't be depending whether I am from the USA. So it should be American English and it's going to be a different language when I'm from the UK and should be different language when I'm somewhere else from Europe. No, it should be one universal language. And I think he broke it down pretty much to that part.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think people got it.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's cool.
Joel Ellenbecker: Did he do the thing just explain to me I'm a 5-year-old?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Did he do that?
Gerwin Kranenburg: absolutely. He did it several times through every day.
Joel Ellenbecker: He did that in a room full of multi-level black belts and he's like, What is the threat?" explain it to me I'm a 5-year-old and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: they're all just like
Gerwin Kranenburg: He did the same thing. So, yeah, absolutely. But did he also do it with black belts? finding the rhythm with the music, the rubber band,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I love that.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: because he did it with the entire group. I think it was so much fun. I mean,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: people were first "What's he gonna do?" And then the music turned up and he started doing it like, "Okay, just Follow my lead." And then, people had so much fun. And I think that's one of the most important things in building the community, staying together, having fun together while learning essential stuff. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I learned this from a karate mentor of mine a long time ago, Dave Kovar, but he always had a thing like smiling, sweating, learning and the rhythm and that drill that he does is super important because that's a big thing that we see with students early on is they just don't know how to move their body at all. having drills like that in our back pocket where we can build their body mechanics and I just had someone recently…
Joel Ellenbecker: who I feel like I have two left feet I don't know what I'm doing. so to have things that we can use to build them up I think is super important.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: absolutely. Yeah, I loved it and I loved seeing so many happy faces. I mean, that's priceless. I just love it.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. That's great. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And talking about those drills. I think especially the movement where we're going right now with the essential movement and the essential drills that will give so much more value to everything that we have been teaching and I think that will also give the entire program but also the organization way more value because we are doing some new stuff.
Gerwin Kranenburg: it's different at least from what I've seen over I would say the past 20 years
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I think it's over the last year and a half as we've been really doubling down and making changes and adjustments. it's been exciting and I think anything worth building is worth taking some time and doing it right. So some of the criticism that we've gotten is we haven't gotten things out as fast as people would want. But for me I really want to build this powerful strong foundation that everything kind of comes from. So we have some really exciting projects that we're working on that I think are going to bring even more value to not only lences…
Joel Ellenbecker: but their instructors and the students at this school. I think the croman worldwide evolution is going to be for everyone which I think is awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, I totally agree and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: what I think is very important and I'm glad Mark did the organization of the seminar. over the past, at least I would say since COVID, it has been so hard getting a lot of people together because in a way people have changed and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: it was good to see people showing up from practically all over the world to a place again and feeling okay with it, having fun, training together. And I like it this way. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's cool. I heard he did such a great job just like he's really professional with organizing it.
Joel Ellenbecker: There was t-shirts and afterwards you guys had champagne and it was just a really exciting thing. I think that's so cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Gerwin Kranenburg: yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, you did a great job.
Joel Ellenbecker: I haven't been to Luxembourg yet. is it similar to Netherlands or is it way different?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Completely different. There are hills over there, so you have to go up and down. …
Gerwin Kranenburg: they speak a completely different language, of course. most of the time they speak three different languages. So it's going to be Luxembourg, it's going to be German, and it's going to be French. So no,…
Joel Ellenbecker: Y is Luxembburggish like a blend of all those languages or…
Joel Ellenbecker: is it totally its own thing?
Gerwin Kranenburg: it's a blend.
Gerwin Kranenburg: it is…
Joel Ellenbecker: Okay. That's cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: if I'm correct, but don't pin me on this one because I think it has to do for way in the past with a part of occupation where it's going to be either it was German or it was French and they were supposed to be speaking I think at first it was French then it was supposed to be speaking German and the people they just didn't like it so they made a mixture of everything and so Luxembourgish It just happened.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's cool. Yeah, I'm excited to get over there and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: I'm excited that we're able to bring enough people together that I think it'll make sense for us to come back. I mean at least once a year and have these big exciting events where we all come together. And it's also neat that you and other I think Mark's even coming back to the States later this year. it's neat that we're able to travel back and forth and learn together.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Absolutely.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I totally agree.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I mean, I'm going to be in the US next month. so I'm so looking forward to it and getting more training in, getting more insights, and then hopefully bringing it back to Europe and well sharing it with the people here.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's great.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's so cool. I love that you're like the tip of the spear,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: like getting the information, bringing it back, spreading it. you do a great job and from everybody that I talked to in Europe, they just speak so highly of you and how compassionate you are and how willing you are to support them and help them out. So, thank you for all that you're doing, Gerwin. I know there's a Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: no problem. To be honest, that's why we do it.
Joel Ellenbecker: I know there's a couple other really cool things that you're working on in the background there, I see your logos. Do you want to talk about safety training gear a little bit?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. yeah, sure.
Gerwin Kranenburg: The brand itself it just happened during COVID I'm also a high school teacher and during co time everything shut down the gym shut down so I was like okay I have nothing to do and then I was like what if I try to design my own stuff get my own training gear so it's going to be the training equipment but also the apparel and I just started drawing stuff and then approaching factories,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: figuring out okay, can you make this and then testing it when we opened again, I was like, okay, what did I do? Because now I have to split my time and energy to two different things. But that just happens. but then we started testing all this stuff in our own gym and several European licences are currently well using a lot of our products. So very proud of it.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's great.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I
Gerwin Kranenburg: And the logo itself I mean it's also on my shirt. it is a little bit similar to the craft worldwide logo which I would say the triangle is like a shield formed shape and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: our logo it's a shield but it also had a lion shape in it which I think it's a combination of everything.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: it looks cool. I really like it and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: You gave me some stuff while I was over there and the apparel is really comfortable. I loved my hat. I'm terrible. I lose I think I lose a water bottle once a month. but I still have the clothes and they're super comfortable and the pads that we use while we were training because I came over for a black belt course like they were solid. they were really well made.
Gerwin Kranenburg: thank That'll make sure you'll get a new hat. Don't worry.
Joel Ellenbecker: Good. and…
Joel Ellenbecker: so you were a certified coach before you did courage coaching and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yes. Yes,…
Joel Ellenbecker: that's another component of how you serve people, Does you have a coaching practice?
Gerwin Kranenburg: that's correct. And that's actually one of the things that kind of happened during having the gym. what happened was we had several members just sticking around after classes and then sharing their problems like okay I'm encountering this or I'm encountering whatever and then we just start talking about it and together with Hogar one of my instructors and also my best friend we spent a lot of time talking to people and then we were like okay can we in any way start monetizing this then we're like okay we have to become certif
Gerwin Kranenburg: instructors, certified coaches, and so we started doing a coaching course. so when I finished that one, then courage showed up, and I was like, I think that's going to be the perfect combination. And to bring it back to the coaching program, what I like about courage program is that I think it's way more holistic.
Gerwin Kranenburg: It is bringing everything together, which is way more helpful for people.
Gerwin Kranenburg: If I talk about my coaching, I love combining it with craft or putting people in the gym themselves and confronting them on a physical level and then start talking. And I think the majority of the people that were coaching, if you put them into the room and you put them to work and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, nice.
Gerwin Kranenburg: you take their breath away, you make it hard on them, they start talking real fast because they just want to rest. They just want you to get Yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: I was gonna say that's…
Joel Ellenbecker: because they want to rest, Yeah. I get people trying to do that to me in class all the time. Now I know what they're doing.
Gerwin Kranenburg: But then it is the perfect entrance for the conversation because they have their rest.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And if they're in a way…
Gerwin Kranenburg: if people just start talking and there comes a silence where people are just processing whatever they have been talking about you can just pick up training again and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I think that's genius growing.
Gerwin Kranenburg: that will just take the pressure off and then they will start working again and once they're working again they get tired again so they start talking again but then there has been a little moment of processing so I think it worked perfectly Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: I mean, there was one time I was on a call with a coach of mine and I was stuck in my head and my body and he's like, "How many burpees can you do in five minutes?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, let's find out." And I was like, "Okay." So, right on the call, I did five minutes of burpees and afterwards I felt way better. So, the idea of the body and the mind working together, I think that's so smart. And I think that people when you're talking about confronting, it's like, hit a pad for 30 seconds and then they're gas and…
Joel Ellenbecker: they're out of breath. that's an opportunity then to ask them those deeper questions or to help aim them towards what they want to get because that's the best part about coaching is it's like it's for them.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: It's like, what do you want in your life, right? Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And that's one of the things I'm also doing is for instance if you have people that are experiencing burnout I would say burnout stuff they're not already in a burnout but they're getting there. So they're just feeling pushed around or whatever. I put them in a room and I am pushing them around. I'm doing exactly…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: what they are experiencing and they get frustrated.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And the moment they get frustrated, I just stop them. And it's like, okay, what's happening right now? you're putting me in the corner. Yes. Why do you let me? And I just keep asking them questions What were your options? Was there an alternative?
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Could you have said, okay, Could you move sideways? What are your options? And then I'm bringing it. Okay, that's the physical part. And then it's going to be like, does this sound something that happens to you on your work life as well? Okay, what are your options? And then they are just like, man, I do exactly the same stuff. I let people just throw stuff at me and I end up in a corner where I'm just feeling bad. I could have said enough is enough or I could make a different choice. And I love combining the physical stuff with all the mental stuff.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's awesome.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, in that realm, I'm sure mental resilience is a big part of what you're helping your clients develop, How do you…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yep. Absolutely.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. I think it is essential in this society for people to do it.
Joel Ellenbecker: how do you feel like I mean, you've described a little bit about it, but how do you feel like you help people build mental resilience? Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And whether it's going to be in the coaching program or it's going to be in regular self-defense classes, I am doing it anyway. for the kids program, I just build it in 5 minutes. Every class, there's going to be some stuff that's either going to be challenging or that's going to feel terrible and I just want you to deal with it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And in the beginning, I think the first few weeks when I said "Okay, it's going to be five minutes of burpees." And the kids, " no. I don't want to do burpees." And with the adults,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: same thing. They were like, " burpees." If you complain, it only becomes more.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And then they just are okay with we have to do it. And even if I forget it once, then it's going to like, hey, they're just ready for it. And I think it's so important for people to understand that in life you will have to deal with setbacks…
Gerwin Kranenburg: but the way how you deal with it that determines how you will move on
Joel Ellenbecker: And it sounds like,…
Joel Ellenbecker: doing those challenging things and, getting outside of our comfort zone. and taking on hard challenges is a realm to do that. And like you said, that could either be in a self-defense program or in coaching or…
Joel Ellenbecker: you were a big runner for a long time, too, right? Did you?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I mean,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: absolutely. Yes.
Joel Ellenbecker: that's an area that I'm playing in now…
Gerwin Kranenburg: And that Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: where it's just a place to practice dealing with challenges and dealing with adversity.
Gerwin Kranenburg: And to be honest, I think it's now a few month two two and a half month ago, we also did a mental toughness challenge.
Joel Ellenbecker: Great.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Where I had a group of people doing six hours of bus rutton combinations.
Joel Ellenbecker: Amazing. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: So it was six hours in a row just doing well, there's a lot of spraws in them and doing it for six hours is challenging and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yes. Yeah,…
Gerwin Kranenburg: then combining it with the coaching with all the mental aspects to it and then by the end everyone just finishing it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: It is amazing and even after a few months they are still talking about it like man I never thought I could do it but I could and now I feel so much better.
Joel Ellenbecker: the king of mental resilience might be David Gogggins. And he calls those things like putting cookies in the cookie jar. And it's like if you look back and it's like if I could do six hours of boss root combinations, it's like what else in life is going to bother me? it's like I can handle any challenge that comes my way.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: And I mean, I know me personally, black belt tests or, other things like I did, the 4x4 by 48 once, which is running four miles every four hours for 48 hours. looking back and being if I can do that, I can tackle this. And I also do think though that the challenge is it's like what have we done lately? Because if we look back at these cookies that are five or 10 years old, they start to get a little stale and they don't help us. That's one thing I really admire is is you're continuing to find ways to challenge yourself and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: do hard things and then pass it on to the people that you're serving and working with. It's really cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: It's one of the things I talked about this morning with a few of my students and they were talking one of them is an old from the Marine Corps and he had a big convention of 500 years Dutch Marines and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: there were a lot of the old folks that were 80 years old.
Gerwin Kranenburg: They're like, "No, I don't need to do anything because back in the days I could fight and…
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I know those type of people.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: the member of me I think he is now but 50 in age and he was talking to him but you still have to train. I mean if you don't train it nothing happens you will lose it." So I used an analogy like okay it's like the kettle you put on and get boiling water. If you stop heating it, it will cool down and it will just become normal water. If you want it to be boiling, you have to put energy into it. And I think for myself, I would feel terrible if I would not put the energy in it and then start teaching my students like you have to put energy in it. No, you have to lead by example.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's huge. That's so important.
Joel Ellenbecker: You've been serving as the, Crow Worldwide's European licensing director for quite a while now. What do you see as the biggest opportunity for growth for Europe? the community. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think the biggest opportunity is that we have to keep on working together and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: being one team. I think that's the most important part. And if I look for instance for the seminar, Mark did a big portion of the organization. I did a lot of the promotion. Nadesh showed up from Belgium. I borrowed a lot of the training guns from class …
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: who couldn't make it, but he was like, "Hey man, I have the material. Take it from me so you can just do it." I think Laura, she showed up. We had Paul from Denmark showing up.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Mih Hall from Ireland texting me okay is there anything I can do I can't make it and I think the community by itself it is a good community and…
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: we have to just appreciate what we're doing and we have to just keep on building on from that point on …
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that's awesome. How do you think we keep the momentum going after that the event we just did in Luxembourg?
Gerwin Kranenburg: what I think is important we have to make sure we
Gerwin Kranenburg: get some instructor training that is on a steady list and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: it's not just the face training or expert training but I would almost say the old graphing guy to you which actually I will be organizing somewhat something like that in September where I will just invite all the instructors and…
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: it's going to be free training for instructors they can just show up and just share experience on the mat and…
Gerwin Kranenburg: swear sweat
Gerwin Kranenburg: Grubs. yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yes, that's so great.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, that was going to be my next question is what are the plans? And it sounds like you've already got something put together for September. And I'm sure you got a lot that you can give them even just from the Luxembourg event, but now coming back in a few weeks to work with CJ some more, I think there's going to be even more collaboration that we all bring together to support anybody who's with KMAG worldwide all around the world. not just in the states, not just in Europe, but earlier this year, we have a new friend, his name is Diego. He's in the coaching group right now, but He's from Uruguay. And so, it's cool just to see.
Joel Ellenbecker: We even have some new friends in Brazil, who are flying the Cromar Worldwide banner. So, it's cool to see the growth and all of us coming together from all across the globe.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. …
Gerwin Kranenburg: what I truly hope is if I look back in over the past 20 years, we had a lot of schools within KMW that due to whatever reasons, they all went their own separate ways. But I hope they will find their way back to KMW because right now everything is changing in a positive way. And I think we are improving. We are growing and we are owning up to whatever mistakes have been made.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: But at the same time we are learning, improving and changing. And I hope people will see it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: they will appreciate it and they will finally find their way back because I think the name by itself crafting worldwide that's exactly what it should be it should be worldwide and I think we are now on a path that I haven't seen before not with any other organization so I hope people will just check it out and if they like it they're welcome Yep.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah, I echo that 100%. I agree. And I'm looking forward to meeting them and working with them and being able to support anybody who either has been in the past with Chromagar Worldwide or who is thinking about it coming forward. it would be great to have them with us. I'm going to give you a couple quickfire questions to close out the podcast. You ready, Gerwin? All right.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Go ahead.
Joel Ellenbecker: What's your favorite training moment in the last year? Yes. …
Gerwin Kranenburg: Absolutely. The seminar looks. Yes. yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: that's awesome. That's cool.
Gerwin Kranenburg: That is my own personal training.
Joel Ellenbecker: What is the most challenging or hard thing that you've put yourself through recently physically?
Gerwin Kranenburg: I have set some goals that I want to do a fivehour non-stop ground fighting challenge for myself. I know you want to join too.
Joel Ellenbecker: Let me know what it is. I'm coming. That sounds awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: No, I think five hours of ground fight is insane.
Joel Ellenbecker: As long as …
Gerwin Kranenburg: It's going to be so challenging for your body, but I just want to do it.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's super exciting. I mean, as long as you don't bite me like Laura bit me, I will come and be part of it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.
Joel Ellenbecker: What's one book or…
Joel Ellenbecker: quote that's changed how you lead?
Gerwin Kranenburg: If people show you…
Gerwin Kranenburg: who they are, believe them. I have another one that's warm. I want to get back on that one. I don't know. It's not by heart. There's also one by Ella Willer Wilcox, but yeah,…
Joel Ellenbecker: That's cool.
Joel Ellenbecker: All right.
Gerwin Kranenburg: I think that's to sin by silence when we should protest. makes cowards out of men. So don't be silent.
Joel Ellenbecker: I love that you embody that, Gwin. are always coming to me with ideas. I love it.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. I refuse to be silent.
Joel Ellenbecker: All right, last one. What's one thing you want every KMW instructor to know right now?
Gerwin Kranenburg: Attend the programs that are being offered. Don't be afraid.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Growth is in discomfort.
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Just do it. That's it.
Joel Ellenbecker:
Joel Ellenbecker: That's awesome. Thank you for your time. and I can't wait to be on the mat again with you soon.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Hey, likewise. Thank you so much for everything you've been doing.
Joel Ellenbecker: Thanks, Kin.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Hey, bye-bye.
Joel Ellenbecker: Did you have fun?
Gerwin Kranenburg: We did it. absolutely. And you
Joel Ellenbecker: That was Yeah, I love this. I mean, someone else just told me they started a podcast recently and they were like, "Yeah, I'm going to have the conversations" And I was like, that's a good way to put it. That's kind of how I feel. It's like I would love to just talk to people about this stuff anyways.
Joel Ellenbecker: And the fact that we get to record it and share it with other people is just a cherry on top for me.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah, I think this is the most natural way of doing a podcast without having everything scripted out.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. Yeah.
Gerwin Kranenburg: It's just going to be like the conversation. You're just going to talk about stuff. That's the most natural way. That's also the most insightful.
Joel Ellenbecker: Yeah. I usually will get some questions kind of teed up,…
Joel Ellenbecker: but I let the conversation go where it's going to go. And I try to not talk to the audience as much as I can because I realized in the first few episodes I was kind of doing that.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Joel Ellenbecker: But it's like if I ever want to fill in context for the audience, I don't have to be like, "Oh, and so the audience knows, I can just ask another question." know, it's like coaching, right? So, yeah, that's cool. I appreciate you being on and…
Joel Ellenbecker: I'm sure we'll have you on again and thanks so much. All right, have a great night.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Thank you.
Gerwin Kranenburg: Hey, have Hey, great day. Bye-bye.
