Another gun defense question

[paragon]

Attended a seminar on gun defense. Cool as hell, but I have one question:

When doing the technique of disarming when the gun is in your back, our instructor indicated that when we have removed the gun and are striking, we should use the elbow ONLY and NEVER hit the guy with the gun. He said “the gun will go off”.

Can someone explain the reasoning behind that?

[ryan]

Re: Another gun defense question

In gun from behind, unlike many of the others, the redirection and control does not involve you grabbing the gun (barrel and slide.) Therefore, your instructor may have been referring to this, since there would likely have been nothing to cause the gun to jam (unless it was still firing when you went for the takeaway.) That said, I try to stay away from absolutes as much as possible, and even in this situation, I teach striking with the muzzle after the disarm (loaded hammerfist.)

[cjs-dad]

Re: Another gun defense question

I agree with what Ryan said, there are no absolutes. In addition I’ve seen many high ranking instructors do it with several of the gun disarm techniques. Darren looks like he’s actually poking the attacker in the face with the barrel.

[dave-bluestein]

Re: Another gun defense question

Most likely, the firearm will NOT go off. In order for this to happen, the firing pin must strike the rear of the bullet and striking with the firearm, in any manner, should not cause this. However, there is always a remote possibility that this COULD happen. The larger point is that striking with the handle of the weapon may cause a jam to a semi-automatic firearm as the bullets, as seated in the magazine, may move. Obviously, if the bullets in the magazine jam, then the firearm will not fire at some point. Another reason, and the main in my opinion, is that when you strike with the handle, the muzzle will redirect in some other direction, thus covering other people, or even the defender. Remember the rule, once we are out of the line of fire, we never get back in.

Striking with the barrel of the weapon is good, and is even taught in some techniques (gun from the side, in front of the arm).

So, the main point: if you strike with the firearm, do so only with the muzzle and not the handle.

Hope this helps.

[leejam99]

Re: Another gun defense question

thanks dave! hope ur feeling better!

[giant-killer]

Re: Another gun defense question

Also, attempting to strike with the weapon could bring the gun closer to the attacker, where he may grab it. I’ve always learned to only strike with the elbow.

_________________
Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Re: Another gun defense question

Agree that with the way guns work, it shouldn’t happen. But – I guess I would argue that, provided you’re out of the line of fire (which you ALWAYS will be if the technique is done correctly) and especially if you’re striking with the muzzle, does it really matter if the gun goes off (other than of course bystandars, etc …) ??? From a legal standpoint it might, and I emphasize MIGHT be a problem, but you’re fighting for your life; you strike with the muzzle, the gun goes off and hits the bad guy who was just attacking you with the gun … OOPS!

[giant-killer]

Re: Another gun defense question

Probably ugly to have his whole brain splattered across your face, but whatever works… ;):

_________________
Giantkiller

[downforlife76]

Re: Another gun defense question

You definately wouldn’t want to hit someone with the butt of an open bolt weapon, but with a closed bolt weapon (any kind of semi-automatic hand gun and most assault rifles), it would be almost impossible to make the round fire by striking with it. I’m not too sure about the internal mechanics of revolvers, but not too many people use those anymore. If you’re taking the weapon away from someone and you’re going to make a strike with it, you want to make it as soon as possible to avoid the attacker regaining control. If you have time to turn it around, you have time to aim and fire. I would say hit the bastard with it in whatever position it’s in as long as you have a firm hold on it.

J-

[paragon]

Re: Another gun defense question

Thanks for all the replies. It’s good to have different perspectives.

It seems to me that in most situations, the more powerful strike at the end is going to be the elbow or the hammerstrike with muzzle (which I hadn’t considered), rather than risking a more glancing blow with the butt.

The comment about not doing the butt strike because the “gun will go off” really thru me and took me out of the class for a moment. I found myself wondering why—since I know very well that any modern weapon in good repair will not discharge after such a blow. Then again, who knows what kind of POS the BG has? Still can’t quite see it.

This seminar was given at another school, not my usual one. I had never met this instructor, and I certainly did not interrupt him to argue about this point. He knows his stuff, and I wouldn’t hesitate to take another seminar from him, but I have to admit, he lost just a little cred with me at that point.

[bradm]

Re: Another gun defense question

” If you’re taking the weapon away from someone and you’re going to make a strike with it, you want to make it as soon as possible to avoid the attacker regaining control. ”

I agree with this. First I think I would be in a panic mode, adreniline rushing, and scared sh**tless. Once I had control of the weapon, I could care less if I hit the attacker with the barrel or the grip. I’m just going to thry to knock the hell out of him and which ever end hits him – so bi it.

[andy-m]

Re: Another gun defense question

I agree with the comments outlined above, certainly regarding the mechanics of semi-auto pistols etc. In particular I agree with the statements indicating how unlikely the weapon is to discharge from using it for a heavy blow, especially with the barrel. In my experience, the key reason for not using the heel of the magazine is the potential for dislodging rounds in the housing, and the consequent potential for stoppages – this is the key reason that military personnel are taught not to hard slap the bottom of magazines when loading weapons. I certainly teach to strike with the muzzle of the pistol as the primary response after a disarm (understanding of course there are no absolutes).

I fully understand the point in the post immediately above, about using any part of the weapon for strikes due to the stress of the moment etc. I guess another point to consider, though, is the case of multiple opponents, in which case I personally would not want to have to spend time rectifying stoppages as a result of using the magazine rather than the muzzle for a strike. Although you should always carry out the immediate action drill as soon as the disarm is complete so you know the state of weapon readiness (and practice this in training), this is not nearly as time consuming as clearing jammed rounds. At the end of the day, you will do whatever your training has conditioned you to do and the situation allows.

Cheers,

Andy

[Author]

Posts