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Tackle a bully and submit them without expecting them to punch, bite, kick, eye gouge? Nothing against BJJ, but I’m not sure teaching kids to slap on a submission is the best defense against a bully.
Thoughts?
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
quote stickfig13:http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201108/real-it-gets-victims-schoolyard-bullying-can-fight-back-help-ufc-royaltyTackle a bully and submit them without expecting them to punch, bite, kick, eye gouge? Nothing against BJJ, but I’m not sure teaching kids to slap on a submission is the best defense against a bully.
Thoughts?
Thoughts??? Yeah I have those sometimes… lol
I like Krav better then BJJ, or should I say maybe the kindler, gentler BJJ as depicted in this article… lol
The only way to deal with bullies and thugs is to put them down… Sure this particular bully might go away- for a while… but most bullies aspire to be thugs, and thugs do not change their ways.
Occasionally, a younger bully can be subdued and taught bullying is bad, but in reality, most do not. They continue to bully and become adult bullies and thugs.
However, when you decrease the odds a bully will ever reproduce by removing his testicles for him, the world becomes a better place!
As an aside- the “zero tolerance” policies in schools, like most public policy is poorly thought out, and worse implemented.
Children need to learn their boundaries. They need to know when they can do what to who. If Jack pushes little Timmy, and little Timmy turns with a sharp elbow to the sternum followed by a side hammerfist, and maybe a front kick to the groin, Jack just learned he can not do that to little Timmy. Maybe Jack will learn bullying is not the career choice for him.
Today, that is not likely to happen. Now, Jack pushes little Timmy. Little Timmy cries and runs to a teacher. Jack tells the teacher some story about it was an accident or whatever, and the teacher, not wanting confrontation because Jack’s parents are also bullies (or might sue- another form of bullying) will drop it. Eventually, little Timmy never feels safe, cries daily at everything and eventually commits suicide.
Zero tolerance only reinforces to a bully he has no limits because nobody can fight him back!
Hey, you asked! lol
:soapbox:Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
quote stickfig13:http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201108/real-it-gets-victims-schoolyard-bullying-can-fight-back-help-ufc-royaltyTackle a bully and submit them without expecting them to punch, bite, kick, eye gouge? Nothing against BJJ, but I’m not sure teaching kids to slap on a submission is the best defense against a bully.
Thoughts?
Speaking as one who is slowly learning some BJJ (IOW not an expert by any means…just barely a novice)
Uh…yeah….and nah. Can BJJ be useful in a no rules fight? Yes….definetely. Is it something I’d depend on totally? No way. It’s useless against multiple opponents and unless your technique is perfected the whole “neutralize a bigger stronger opponent” aspect is highly over-rated.
I consider BJJ a very useful weapon in the arsenal which I can use when given the opportunity. Not an end-all be-all.
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
Having lingered in the shadows in the forum for awhile, this one got me off the couch so to speak. I think Ghostvet’s points are well taken.
I have my child in BJJ currently and he is relatively young. I purposely went that route for a variety of reasons ( future sport aspects, good role models in the school, etc. etc.), but one of the primary reasons was at his current age I’d rather he have the ability to control an opponent as opposed to send his testies to his throat.
Of course, as he gets older and the potential risks increase, so will the potential responses and I will expose him to more violent methods of ending a confrontation.
Ghostsvets point is spot on. Kids are not adults. When Jimmy bullies lil Billy on the playground, Jimmy blasting Billy to kingdom come may not be the wisest course of action. Again, much depends on circumstances, age, etc. Point is, the bully will probably learn the lesson, however, the liability that attaches to lil Billy is there. At best he gets a tongue lashing from the principal, at worst he seriously hurts the bully leading to expulsion, potential law suits, bad reputation among administartors at school, or even juvenile court.
So having a child exposed to a more moderate approach imo is a good alternative to the good ole fashion rt. hook with kick to the tenders as effective as it may be.
In fact, the same theory applies to adults as well. Its easy to say, hey this guy was “attacking me” so I blasted him and walked away. True enough. But the harsh reality is always there is a possible ramification to that choice by the defender. I’ve had more than one acquintance that has after effectively ending some confrontation found himself with a lawsuit on his front door and a set of handcuffs on his wrists. Adults can more easily, or should be able to more easily, weigh those options before engaging and then accept the consequences whatever they may be. Kids may not have that maturity or life expereince and in all liklihood will go to what they know, and if thats a violent counter as opposed to a moderated take down or submission, thats what they will do with the attendant potential consequences. No doubt the bully problem will likely be over for them and i in fact agree its a great response, but again there maybe other options that may also get the same result with less dire potential consequences.
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
Having lingered in the shadows in the forum for awhile, this one got me off the couch so to speak. I think Ghostvet’s points are well taken.
I have my child in BJJ currently and he is relatively young. I purposely went that route for a variety of reasons ( future sport aspects, good role models in the school, etc. etc.), but one of the primary reasons was at his current age I’d rather he have the ability to control an opponent as opposed to send his testies to his throat.
Of course, as he gets older and the potential risks increase, so will the potential responses and I will expose him to more violent methods of ending a confrontation.
Ghostsvets point is spot on. Kids are not adults. When Jimmy bullies lil Billy on the playground, Jimmy blasting Billy to kingdom come may not be the wisest course of action. Again, much depends on circumstances, age, etc. Point is, the bully will probably learn the lesson, however, the liability that attaches to lil Billy is there. At best he gets a tongue lashing from the principal, at worst he seriously hurts the bully leading to expulsion, potential law suits, bad reputation among administartors at school, or even juvenile court.
So having a child exposed to a more moderate approach imo is a good alternative to the good ole fashion rt. hook with kick to the tenders as effective as it may be.
In fact, the same theory applies to adults as well. Its easy to say, hey this guy was “attacking me” so I blasted him and walked away. True enough. But the harsh reality is always there is a possible ramification to that choice by the defender. I’ve had more than one acquintance that has after effectively ending some confrontation found himself with a lawsuit on his front door and a set of handcuffs on his wrists. Adults can more easily, or should be able to more easily, weigh those options before engaging and then accept the consequences whatever they may be. Kids may not have that maturity or life expereince and in all liklihood will go to what they know, and if thats a violent counter as opposed to a moderated take down or submission, thats what they will do with the attendant potential consequences. No doubt the bully problem will likely be over for them and i in fact agree its a great response, but again there maybe other options that may also get the same result with less dire potential consequences.
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
Esquire: I couldn’t have said it better. I have my 10-year-old nephew in BJJ right now and when she’s older, my daughter will be, too. I do plan to get them into Krav eventually, but not for a few years.
I think that one of the key points in the article that stickfig linked is that these kids aren’t just learning techniques – they’re learning a stepwise approach to standing up to bullies that starts with telling an adult and goes all the way up to fighting, if necessary.
If knowing how to fight is the only tool you give your kid, then that’s what they’ll use in every situation. Eventually they’ll run into someone tougher, or worse yet, armed. This happened to me in junior high, the first time someone pulled a gun on me.
We don’t have any kids Krav classes in my area, but we have maybe a handful of teenagers in our regular classes. Some are very mature. Others are little thugs who will probably learn a harsh lesson one of these days.
I agree that kids need to learn how to defend themselves, but fighting is just one of the tools of self-defense. I’d argue that situational awareness and common sense are much more important.
Not to mention that BJJ is actually pretty legit for self-defense. Most fights in the grade school to junior high age range are sloppy, 1-on-1 affairs between two people who don’t really know what they’re doing or have the strength to hurt each other badly. They usually go to the ground where someone with even a little BJJ experience will own someone without experience.
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
OldKMdude and Esquire32…
You both have valid points in today’s world.
However, remember KM is a defensive system. In essence, it is not to be used until hands-on have already happened or is imminent. The violence has already begun. I want my family to be able to defend themselves from violence.
Yes, a verbal resolution is always the best way, of course! But most bullies do not respond to talk. You are not going to talk your way out of some wannabe gang-banger looking to boost his rep and impress the gathering crowd.
KM also teaches restraint. You eliminate the thug’s ability to hurt you and you break away and get out quickly. You do not do one more strike than is necessary. Not like I have to teach anyone here anything about Krav (not that I could, either)- you know this already of course, and I am not a teacher- just a Level 1 student.
But, I do know bullies and thugs. Both as a LEO, and as a parent of a child who has been inexplicably bullied for years throughout middle school and her first year of high school. It ain’t pretty. You want the kids to learn how to deal with others, life, and it’s challenges. But, the schools virtually tie their hands behind their back and leave them wide open for bullies.
Telling a teacher is not the best way to handle things- unless it goes too far (which is what I teach my kids). I teach my kids there are three times when “telling” is ok. If someone is about to get hurt, something is going to get broke, or if I ask. Other than that, keep your mouths shut. But, the school wants each child to “tell” right away, labeling kids as punks or snitches to the other kids.
Then, when they do tell the teacher or the principle, nothing is done. Maybe they call the bully into the office, but that ‘pain’ is quickly over with and the bully returns to class with even more to bully about. So, now your kid is now labeled easy prey, and a “punk” to other kids.
The schools will not allow you to reach out to the other parents. Not even as a mediation meeting with the principle. If a kid is a bully, then his parents are responsible.
If violence has already begun against my child (or me or my wife), then we all have an absolute right to be safe and not get hurt. In the US, we all have the right to meet violence “+1”, meaning you go 1 level above the thug to stop him from hurting you or someone else.
So, if you get pushed, no you cannot normally shoot him. But if a gun is pulled, then you have a right to meet deadly force with deadly force. There is a reasonableness standard.
Just as was said earlier, a younger bully is less likely to cause real physical damage, and the same applies for a young Krav student. The only way to stop a bully is to figuratively ‘bloody his nose’. Whether that means an actual bloody noose, or testicles in the clavicles depends mostly on the bully I think.
But, as the kids reach middle school, things change. Emotions run higher than normal and do not calm down until well after high school- and for some never. Pressure starts building in kids quickly. Unchecked bullying leads to many bad things- from suicide to school shootings, to mass killings. This has been very prevalent as of late.
Everyone is afraid of lawsuits these days. That was even intimated in previous posts. Cops are getting sued left and right which is starting to get cops to second-guess their actions for fear of a frivolous suit. This can cause a deadly delay. Teachers and schools are even more fearful. They simply fail to act on nearly everything.
So, if someone wants to sue because their child began the violence, let them. You can get sued for virtually anything, or nothing, in this litigious country of ours. Do not think BJJ will exempt you from that. Some parent will sue you because your child’s “holding” or “restraining” of their child made their child feel helpless and is now having nightmares, wetting the bed, claustrophobia, in need of psychiatric help, pain and suffering, and everything else they can think of, especially if you have money. The deeper your pockets, the worse the lawsuit.
Krav is not the answer to everything. BJJ is a tool, but also not the answer. Talking is not always the answer either. However, violence should always be met with violence and stopped dead in it’s tracks.
Well, enough of my soapbox… lol
:soapbox:Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
Pretty much agree with everything you said, except the original thread was”BJJ for kids”. The thread wasn’t do we have a right to take out those that bully us. I agree we do. The question is not does that right exist, the question is when do we exercise and with what. ( ie, is bjj suited for children’s self defense) in reference to children under this thread. By the way I don’t usually define those of high school age as a kid, I put them in a more quasi-adult capacity with a much broader decision making ability than say a 9 year old.
Also, I’d add as a youth i got my share of bullying and had a father figure whose basic advice was to pick up a club and take care of it. I discovered the power of a strong offense with a bully early on, but then that was before zero tolerance policies, expulsions, detached parents, and the like. I have already told my son ( bjj aside) that there is one absolute…no kid puts his hands on you in violence without being dealt with in some fashion. Again, the question is how is it dealt with, etc etc.
Re: BJJ for Kids Self Defense?
For stopping all but the most determined bully, just about any martial art should work. Bullies don’t pick on the kids that fight back. When I was in school I hadn’t taken any martial arts classes. I was small and some of the bigger kids would pick on me, eventually I’d had enough and just started punching back. My punches were pretty weak (no training, no twisting at the waist) but it was enough to convince bullies that I wasn’t an easy target :box:.
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