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Hello board! Online I’ve heard a lot of hype about Krav Maga being the greatest all around fighting system in the world, along with a fair amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu bashing by KMers. I don’t mean to ruffle any feathers by making assumptions of KM. I’m here to get the straight dope from legitimate practitioners and share my experience with BJJ. My hope is that you develop a better understanding of modern BJJ from my perspective and I see if it’s worth me checking out a session in a KM gym.
About me and my BJJ experience – I grew up in a bad neighborhood and spent most of my childhood eluding bullies and talking/fighting my way out of roaming packs of bloodthirsty older teenagers. I dabbled in western style boxing at this time and learned that I love to spar. Now I’m almost 30 and I’ve been doing BJJ for about 6 years at a well known MMA gym in Florida and am a high level blue belt. By high level what I mean is that I usually submit other blues and do not get submitted by them. I occasionally catch higher belts but for the most part they still dominate me. White belts don’t stand a chance regardless of size, strength or other MA experience. What I love about BJJ is that it works. We train hard, hours each day. Live, full force grappling happens before and after every class with soft strikes to keep you honest. We call this “rolling”. Some sessions with more advanced students are as brutal as they get.
I wanted to first explain that there is an “old” and a “new” BJJ style. The old style involves waiting for your opponent to make a mistake, little protection from strikes and less effective techniques for no-gi because it came from tournament judo and early NHB fighting in Brazil. New school BJJ is very aggressive and dominate, you don’t wait for a mistake of your opponent. Now we assume everyone has a foundation in grappling and instead you force them to make an error for you to exploit by use of pressure. Also the techniques are refined for MMA strikes and no-gi. No more making yourself vulnerable by scooping under your opponent for a half guard sweep, or going for a takedown in a way that would allow one to be getting punched/kneed in the head, or throwing your legs up for wild armbar attempts. When you see that happening it is old school BJJ and the fighter was trained for tournament, point-style grappling. The no-gi new BJJ we do now is light years ahead of Judo’s ground game and constantly evolving by keeping what is safe and works and throwing out what doesn’t. The idea is to stay safe in the fight, don’t lose first, win second. My instructor has become popular with his no-gi MMA style and also teaches the field operational personnel at socom. They have had representatives of all the MAs in there and like his style the best for its effectiveness and aggressiveness. It takes awhile to learn but is great in that it works against high level grapplers unlike many other still taught techniques. I just lucked into a good school that produces quality professional fighters.
Aside from thinking that the old style is the only style of BJJ, the other misconception I see is that people think BJJ is not a full fighting system and lacks striking. If you think BJJers don’t do striking you don’t know what you are talking about. We jab, stomp, leg kicks (for balance rarely ever kick above the knee and most of our kicks are a diversion to set up something). We also strike from top position on the ground to get you to free up a limb or turn your body or release your grip. There are also quite a few standing techniques that we do including submissions while standing. Much of the standing game comes from judo as well as clinch and wrestling. BJJ is all about controlling your opponent in all dimensions of the fight. A good player has tools for every position and situation possible in the fight. BJJ assumes the fight is 1-on-1 unarmed. Even if it’s not I’d rather have my BJJ skills then not in that situation.
I have rolled with hundreds of BJJers and I can tell you if they are new and want a taste of the art that they are tapping to a standing submission or taken down and choked/locked within a few seconds. Guys who have more talent and experience than I, can catch me quick too. If I’ve rolled with them for awhile and we are about equal then we might be on our feet for the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 20 down on the mat in an epic battle. The training I know has physically toughened me and made my confidence great. I never fear a physical confrontation with anyone. I know unless you have trained BJJ longer then me or are crazy lucky with a sucker punch, that I will win and the only guys who I know could kick my ass are not the kind that would attack me. The reason I know this and have this confidence is the reality of countless hours of mat time, that is superior quality live action training 5 days a week with various fully resisting opponents and the only rules being no biting, eye gouging or groin shots. Realistically if you’re doing good BJJ they cannot reach those vulnerable areas of you anyway and if they try then they are giving you a limb or neck for submission with their effort. Call me arrogant, but what is great about BJJ is that I can repeatedly prove myself on the mat, there is no faking it when someone is forced to tap and start over. Either you took the time to learn submission grappling or you didn’t, period.
Obviously I love BJJ and think it’s great. I love how one can grapple full force everyday and not become too beat up to train by the end of the week. That makes for more hours of actually “doing it” and that is how one learns and gets better. My core of BJJ techniques have long since migrated to that instinctive part of my brain, Muay Thai a couple times a week scratches my kick boxing itch nicely.
On to Krav Maga and where you guys need to help set me straight. Does KM live spar every class and if you do how does your body hold up to it?
I’ve heard the worst criticism that it’s just a weak style of kickboxing with an emphasis on situational awareness for self defense and “self defense” is a joke, just learn how to really fight.
I’ve heard the best criticism in that it’s a complete fighting system and can help one fair the odds with multiple armed opponents while looking like a kung fu bad ass.
My current belief is that I’d ditch most of the techniques but possibly pick something valuable up from the mindset of KM.
Another question I have is does KM teach only how to abruptly make an exit or do the skills consider maintaining ones self and succeeding in a prolonged one-on-one fight? I’m all about the jab and run, don’t get encircled and keep a move on street philosophy but I’d like to know if there is more than that. In BJJ we casually roll with no tournament rules, no clock, until someone gives up then restarts and if you are equal skill level it can take a long time for someone to finally get the upper hand. I wonder if KM considers a fight lasting more than a few seconds or going to the ground a failure, so neglects to train for that scenario. Are there KM tournaments? For training do you start the fighting from poor, vulnerable positions?
Why I’m most curious in KM… gun/knife-jitsu! I’m very interested if KM has developed good weapons handling techniques for not only maintaining control of your weapon but also disarming opponents. I’d love to learn some slick tricks for use against skilled knife/bludgeon/taser wielders and gunman. No cheesy ice pick or hammer knife hold, I mean guys who would come at you in a boxer’s crouch blocking with the front arm and a dagger ready to jab and slash in their other power hand. I could get down with some of that advanced training if there is such an animal in KM.
Please informRe: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
IMO:
1. KM is not so much a “fighting” system as it is a Self-Defense system.
2. I’m probably a “high blue” in BJJ too and really enjoy BJJ training.
3. BJJ is NOT the end-all-be-all martial art OR “fighting” system.
4. I would encourage you to “power down” some – you’re way overconfident.
5. What is taught and How it’s taught are going to vary from school to school – no matter what style/system you train in.
6. If you can find a free intro class or two and have the time, won’t hurt to try something out.
7. Glad you enjoy your training and have a great school to train at.Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
quote nickodemus:[FONT=Arial][COLOR=#000000]I have rolled with hundreds of BJJers and I can tell you if they are new and want a taste of the art that they are tapping to a standing submission or taken down and choked/locked within a few seconds. Guys who have more talent and experience than I, can catch me quick too. If I’ve rolled with them for awhile and we are about equal then we might be on our feet for the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 20 down on the mat in an epic battle. The training I know has physically toughened me and made my confidence great. I never fear a physical confrontation with anyone.
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
Guys come on ease up.
OP, enjoy your training whatever you decide to do.
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
OK, OK I re-read my post and I see that I sound like an elitist grappling a-hole. That is the empowerment of BJJ with no real way to boast it other than slapping hands on the mat… The other blue knows… go into any reputable BJJ gym. If you don’t know how to play our game it is tap, tap, tap city for you. That’s really all I’m trying to convey. You may not think it’s a well rounded system but I’d be hard pressed to find another that gives you so many powerful tools in the tool box for all of the positions involved in fighting an opponent, while keeping you well protected.
Back to my question though. Do you guys have good techniques for disarms against determined and skilled opponents, weapons retention, prisoner control… or not? Is there a place in/near Tampa that you may suggest for me to check out? I love learning new technique but want to make sure I’m not wasting my time at the wrong place…Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
quote nickodemus:OK, OK I re-read my post and I see that I sound like an elitist grappling a-hole. That is the empowerment of BJJ with no real way to boast it other than slapping hands on the mat… The other blue knows… go into any reputable BJJ gym. If you don’t know how to play our game it is tap, tap, tap city for you. That’s really all I’m trying to convey. You may not think it’s a well rounded system but I’d be hard pressed to find another that gives you so many powerful tools in the tool box for all of the positions involved in fighting an opponent, while keeping you well protected.Back to my question though. Do you guys have good techniques for disarms against determined and skilled opponents, weapons retention, prisoner control… or not? Is there a place in/near Tampa that you may suggest for me to check out? I love learning new technique but want to make sure I’m not wasting my time at the wrong place…
Sorry, you still sound that way. Any fighting skills are good but I hope your overconfidence doesn’t get you killed sometime when you are “rolling” with a guy in an alley covered with broken glass and his buddy slips up behind you and slips a knife between your ribs.
About weapons and multiple attackers, of course. That’s what krav is all about, at least at the higher levels. The intro hand to hand stuff may seem lame to an experienced fighter but krav is a principle based system, not a technique based one. At the higher levels, you learn that the intro stuff works exactly the same whether the guy is holding a weapon or not and that’s why it may not be like what a sport fighter would do. Typical advanced drill as described by our resident admin/instructor/badass CJs Dad,
“However as you gain technique there’s more expected of you.
I remember walking into the school and with my bag still on my shoulder leaning in the class to say hi to the instructor, Christian says “oh you’re just in time to help me with a drill.” I drop my bag thinking he just wants to demo on me. He tells the class to grab a weapon (gun, stick, knife, long-gun)
Then he says, OK everyone, attack Sean. And suddenly I had 20 people trying various ways to kill me. After a couple minutes he yells break and says “that’s the drill”
I call that drill “shark tank” btw
Point is the intensity is there its just different.”
Sorry, I can’t help you with a school in Tampa. Be aware that there’s a lot of “fake” krav going around since it has gotten so popular.
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
The thing with bjj is that seperation in skill level between belts “can” be as drastic as the op is statiing and the level of awareness by outsiders tends to be lower than I ever thought ….and your right about the respect level toward krav and maybe visa versa
The problem for you going to krav is starting over and krav is very basic in the beginning and by its princples not complicated. BJJ is very technique driven. Krav is princple based and maybe even more mentality driven. The learning curve in bjj is long…the learning curve in krav by design shorter so it won’t be4 as sophisticated as your use to
Its a miltary system and built into it is the Spec ops concept of speed, suprise and violence of action as well as multiple adversaries and grabbing a tool
BJJ’ers will say if you can’t beat one guy how can you deal with more…and that has merit to a point but its outta context because combat sports are agreed upon fights with rules weight classes and you start at the same time…the street has none of that and are better thought of as ambushes as opposed to fights…you never know when or who and the opponent has something up his sleeve
No systen really train full contact full bore daiilly annd it has to become much less when you start target focusing on fragile areas..you might be able to take a full shot from me to the jaw but you ain’t going anwhere if my gf hits you square in the throat…or i’ve seen thai kicks deaden a guys thigh but what damage would that do to the knee…no more training partners…so there has to be a degree of cooperation in training and because of that its hard for combat sport guys to make the transition and even respect krav…but here’s the thing the reverse isn’t true because the krav guys tend to understand the different arenas a little better and usually are willing to intergrate easier into the sport paradigm and translate those skillz to both arenas
my gut says the transition may be easier for krav guys because it may seem like more of a growth to their skill sets where maybe bjj’ers tend to see it as going backwards..but they can learn from both…the key to starting or building your personal sd system is need or want…I am crawling thru bjj..I’m old fat but have a great instructor and we do mma…but for me krav woould probably be better cause I’m more likely to get in a bar fight….either way you pick a base system and expand the arsenel to fit your needs…just realize you have to empty your cup to learn new things then mesh the old with the new…..and thats hard because our ego’s will fight us all the way
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
sorry, but most of the people here are just a little more humble than you, but whatever…
I think Krav Maga is very effective at weapons defense. My school teaches it a little even at midlevels. As mentioned it is also good with dealing with multiple attackers, we practice that quite often.
Good luck, hope you can find a place in FL to try it outRe: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
quote catapult:I hope your overconfidence doesn’t get you killed sometime when you are “rolling” with a guy in an alley covered with broken glass and his buddy slips up behind you and slips a knife between your ribs.Ohh I’m sure you would just hate that!:D: This is the kind of ignorant BJJ bashing that I mentioned encountering online in my OP.
The BJJ scenario for that would more likely be the initial assailant throwing punches that set him up for getting gi choked with his own t-shirt while standing, him out cold in less than 10 seconds from when it all started and then thrown on his head. Engaging the 2nd attacker is a wild card. God help anyone outnumbered. Jiu-Jitsu guys are not idiots. We are not going to go to the ground in a glass covered alley. Recognizing the situation and an unfair fight should make anyone flee and evade. If someone sucker punched me in the alley and really rocked me, you know sent me reeling, I’d like to think my guard could keep me alive by protecting me, not submitting him, until I was more revived. If a BJJ guy is uncomfortable from closed guard don’t be surprised if he decides to push off your hip with one leg to make space between the two of you while he kicks you in the sternum with his other leg and pops back up to standing. It’s not all ground game and we all prefer to be on top, not bottom.
I’m not sure what “principle based system” means. We all have principles I suppose. There are so many dirty little tricks in BJJ. The original JJ had weapons and they have a science to them as well but much of those are outdated hardware. I always like thoughtful and effective techniques. I guess where I’m failing here is that I want a BJJ style class that covers the situations addressed in KM scenario. By BJJ style what I mean is that an instructor and partner demonstrate a technique, and then you drill it a ton with a partner while the coaches walk around and tweak and improve your technique. Then you all get on the wall and pair off or group to fight with what you have been learning, with emphasis on integrating the demonstrated techniques from that day into your game. That is the typical format. I have no idea how they do it in KM with shark tanks and such. We have a fenced in cage. I just want the same quality learning as BJJ but with rubber knives and multiple assailants and other cool stuff like that. Basically I’m looking to expand my game into new territory with techniques for situation XYZ. I certainly wouldn’t go looking for these situations. I just like to feel prepared for anything. I’m not sure if KM is for me or if there is a place in Tampa worthwhile. I see guys driving around with magnetic signs on their trucks offering classes.
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
nickodemus, some comments:
1. Krav and BJJ mean little against an opponent from 15 yards with a firearm.
3. Krav is more about awareness and reaction to violent situations that disrupt the OODA Loop than fighting technique.
2. Grappling skills are a great thing to have, but don’t approach self-defense training as a grappler trying to add techniques to your “game”; instead learn to defend yourself and incorporate techniques from your “game” in to a self defense mindset.
3. Choking ties you up for 2 seconds too long; snap limbs, gouge eyes, bite off ears, dig fingers under rib cages and into collarbones.
4. Probably the most important: you will never be able to “fair up the fight”, as you won’t know that they intend to attack. If you can’t run, violently convince them that it isn’t worth fighting you–this is not the same thing as winning the fight. If you aren’t beating them with something, shooting them, or beating them on something, you’re doing it wrong.Take the Krav curriculum from the ground up and pay attention to everything you learn, or nothing; your attitude shows a certain arrogance that screams Tapout shirts and “I take BJJ” statements to intimidate. This isn’t bashing BJJ, this is advising you. Either way you go, good luck.
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
quote :[COLOR=#444444][FONT=Verdana]If a BJJ guy is uncomfortable from closed guard don’t be surprised if he decides to push off your hip with one leg to make space between the two of you while he kicks you in the sternum with his other leg and pops back up to standing.Krav teaches that as a first choice, not a last choice. The idea is to avoid going to the ground and, if you do, get back up as fast as you can. On the ground, you are vulnerable to the guy’s buddies and gang bangers, bar brawlers, etc. all have buddies even if you don’t see them at first. The typical scenario is a sucker punch followed by a group stomp.
Your BJJ skills will serve you well in krav-style self defense but mostly you’d use them to avoid going to the ground. And a standing choke, while very useful, is much slower than a solid right cross to the jaw. One second, one guy KTFO (or at least rocked), who’s next…
The principle-based thing means learning a minimum of techniques to get multiple jobs done. Under the stress of being attacked, the fewer decisions you have to make, the faster you’ll react and getting ahead of the other guy is everything. An example is you’ll see many MMA guys block a hook with a hand on their head. That works great in the cage but, if he has a knife you didn’t see, you’ll end up wearing it in your ear. So Krav teaches beginners to block a hook out front, wrist to wrist. That might seem lame to an MMA guy but later, when you add the knife, it’s the same defense. Only one thing to remember and it doesn’t matter if he has a knife or not, you’ve already done the block by the time whatever he may or may not be holding registers on your conscious mind.
[/FONT][/COLOR]Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
OK before my lil bjj story. I think bjj is awesome, have an interest myself, and have many friends and family that do it very heavily. Now the story. BJJ guy comes to a krav class. He was a brown belt under machado i think. Anyways, after class we are talking stuff and he says lets roll around and I’ll show you some stuff. Cool. So he put me in some type of choke from the front ( like a cross choke or something) as a demo and said what would you do now as he started squeezing. He was wanting to see the magic Krav techniques in action I guess. Ps. Didn’t know any by the way. I reached out and bit his arm ( only enough to leave a red mark ) and he let go. He gave me a funny look and said what was that. I said only thing I could think of, but you let go. Never came back. Hmmm…..
Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
No Tap out shirt here to go with my smugness. Those shaved head dudes never actually come into the gym for very long. They are more fans of MMA then devoted students. I’m one of the calmest guys you would meet. I’m not a big guy, only 165, I’m in good shape but I don’t think I look that intimidating. Most guys at my gym are at least 180 so my game is forced to be more technical. I don’t go to bars or like to get in fights. I get it all out in the gym. Confident/arrogant, whatever.
A gi choke is just an example that came to mind because it worked in a similar situation 2 years ago while I was pumping gas and a guy at the 7-11 thought I disrespected him because I asked them to turn down their music. It has been a long time since I was jumped or in a fight with this one exception. He came out of their car with his pop urban culture pants hanging off him, started shadow boxing and dancing around and then attacked me! I think to save face in front of his friend who never reacted. When he closed I put both my arms up in the stop position like wtf to make space and the choke was there. Do I remember grabbing the back of his shirt at the label, no, or pulling the other side across, no… did time slow down and it work lucky for me that day, yes! Before the manager came out the fight was over. Glad his buddy in the car was a deer in headlights and not a shooter.
Gi chokes can take a few seconds but you would be surprised how fast its lights out if you do it right and get a good grip before straightening your arms. They cannot effectively punch you while being choked if done right. An arm triangle followed by a hip toss is even faster and real easy to slide into while trading punches if you do it like a duck under off their haymaker. If you want to stay off the ground you could also attempt a standing Kimura followed up with a knee to the face once they are bent forward. I just list some to illustrate that BJJ has a lot of techniques for various situations. We drill so many techniques that some might think it limits the application. In reality that is not how it works. Your brain is a magical and wonderful thing. After a few months of training the technical information is memorized and not recalled verbally in your mind but instead appropriate options bubble to the surface as you constantly analyze the fight. Your brain recognizes the situation, your relative position, balance, orientation with your opponent and the appropriate techniques bubble to the surface without effort. It’s not hard because there are really only a dozen or so basic submissions and white belts and black belts finish them the same way. The difference is how you force them onto your opponent and there are tons of setups that all end with the same basic unstoppable submissions. We probably have some of the best awareness in the game for reacting to the actions of our opponents while also baiting and tricking them if not outright controlling them, timing, pressure, cardio, distance and space, the room around us as it pertains to training partners sharing mat space. You cannot pay attention to these things if you’re trying to review the steps of an armbar in your head. Those steps have to be on autopilot. Your body does it by recognition of feel from drilling, drilling, drilling. I’m pretty fast on the mat, a lot of guys say that, it’s not necessarily a good thing, it can make you sloppy. My quickness is not super reaction speed, it is from anticipation. I simply know that from this given position while he is eating my forearm my opponent is uncomfortable and wants to change the situation but he can effectively only attempt 1 of however many things. So with that anticipation you can explode into your next step the instant they move and you recognize what they are going to do. We also disrupt our comfort and desire to fight, demoralize and exhaust ourselves by working to breath and suffering under shoulder pressure. The idea is that when you are able to stay calm with stress you are more aware and creative, you do better BJJ. A survival fight and calm don’t go together so then you unleash at 100% with your A game and don’t let go when they tap… simple transition.
Of course firearms would trump unarmed combat. I own and train with those too. I like to develop unarmed skills because they cannot be taken from you and are ultimately concealable and always available. Besides, unless you carry a gun on your hip you won’t have it ready when you need it anyway. Also if it’s stuck in your holster while you’re laying on your arm mounted under a grappler it is useless. Guys who spend $1,000 on a pistol and no training yet think they are formidable amuse me.
I’ve never practiced biting an ear or jamming an eye so I don’t know how effective I would be trying that. I think I get the concept, that exploding with extreme brutal force creates the shock that allows you to get away. I just wonder if any of it would work against a real opponent who is ready for you to throw that hand breaking right cross at their jaw. We train for that opponent, to break all their limbs and joints and choke them unconscious. Unless you guys are volunteering to get your nuts bit in training or whatever I don’t see how those techniques would be A game go-to moves in combat.Re: BJJ guy considering crosstraining in KM, but first…
quote esquire32:OK before my lil bjj story. I think bjj is awesome, have an interest myself, and have many friends and family that do it very heavily. Now the story. BJJ guy comes to a krav class. He was a brown belt under machado i think. Anyways, after class we are talking stuff and he says lets roll around and I’ll show you some stuff. Cool. So he put me in some type of choke from the front ( like a cross choke or something) as a demo and said what would you do now as he started squeezing. He was wanting to see the magic Krav techniques in action I guess. Ps. Didn’t know any by the way. I reached out and bit his arm ( only enough to leave a red mark ) and he let go. He gave me a funny look and said what was that. I said only thing I could think of, but you let go. Never came back. Hmmm…..I roll with less skilled to practice my submissions and more skilled to practice my defense to submissions. The sweeps and transitions are always in play. I roll gently with guys from other MAs when they come in just to see what they do, its very curious to me. All the time new guys will tuck their chin when I go to rear choke them from behind and I just wrench across their jaw instead of their neck. The leverage is so great they tap to keep it from popping out of the hinge. They cannot bite because of the force; their skin would split on their teeth and mouth gets no purchase. What you may think will save you sometimes doesnt really work. Our BJJ is considered too aggressive by some of the Brazilians who believe everything should be finessed. I figure if a guy is serious enough to bite me I’m going to finish the submission bite and all. I’d have to, he has bad intentions for me. Human bites are nasty germy wounds. Realistically it hasn’t been a problem in training but I’d have to fight a biter very carefully. I do have one bite scar on my leg from a fight but that was long before I got into BJJ.
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