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what are everyone’s thoughts on how they would’ve reacted in those tight confines of an airplane? tight quarters like an airplane require a different mind frame and great use of muay thai clinch work. do you guys think BJJ would have been helpful other than the final restraint technique?
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
I have pondered this situation. My conclusion is that if I was standing in front or to the side of the bad guy (who was seated) I’d punch him in the head repeatedly to knock him out. If behind him, it’s choke time. My thinking is to address the immediate danger first. He’s igniting something, so stopping that process is the priority. Rendering him unconcious would be the first order of business in my mind.
Yeah, he could have a weapon. Yeah, he could have a partner standing by, ready to attack me. It doesn’t matter. If he succeeds in whatever he’s doing, we’re all dead anyway. That’s where I’m hoping that other survival-minded people will step up and help out.
Now, let’s talk about the real issue here: How do we prevent terror attacks on airliners from taking place? I’d look at the experts in Israel and utilize their proven and effective techniques. We’ll never do it here, however – the ACLU types will scream loud and long.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
I’m not sure what jits techniques you are considering for this situation, but very few would be applicable. Generally, for jits, you need to establish good position first…virtually impossible here. I just got back from teaching several courses in Mexico, including one with 30 federal officers. One of the workshops dealt with this very thing (in a simulated fuselage), and it is very difficult to maneuver, especially when you have lots of folks reacting (going to or away), with no real coordinated plan.
Without knowing the totality of the circumstances, I generally would favor Tuna’s advice…smash ’em. As my friend Richard Grillat says, when related to self defense, “grappling may be your thing, but blunt force trauma is king.” By the way, Richard has definitely “been there, done that.”
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
By the way, you don’t need restraint techniques for someone who is unconscious or, well, dead.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
I’d heard about this story but hadn’t read all the details. Hubby and I got to run through an airplane attack last year when Pete opened up his new location. I agree with Ryan on what you’re limited in doing-good positioning in those tight quarters-good luck!:OhMy:
Yeah, getting that sucker down and unconscious would be my choice.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
quote stevetuna:Now, let’s talk about the real issue here: How do we prevent terror attacks on airliners from taking place? I’d look at the experts in Israel and utilize their proven and effective techniques. We’ll never do it here, however – the ACLU types will scream loud and long.I’ve been to Israel a few times for career-related activities & the grilling / psychological probing you get before boarding in Israel (also when I flew once with El-Al originating in Europe) is quite something. You’d really have to have nerves of steel and be a skilled, pretty much pathological liar to have any hope of getting through without drawing some attention were you to have ulterior motives or be lying. Basically one security agent picks apart your whole ‘story’, actively & creatively (eg: not just going down a set list of standard questions) following various threads and studying your reactions, demeanour & expressions the whole time – then they hand you off to a 2cnd agent who does the same – I assume to provide another layer & also check the consistency of your story. This is in addition to the regular TSA style baggage X-Ray ‘object’ search.
IMO this checking the mind of the person style of airport security is far superior to what exists outside of Israel where attention is focused mainly on stopping objects. The thing is though that it requires a higher caliber, better trained & frankly more intelligent type of person than is the norm for typical airport security personnel. I’ve met someone socially who does this work for El Al & they were a sharp cookie.
Fwiw – everyone got the grilling with no exceptions, including Hasidic Jews in full orthodox regalia.
In Europe & the States there is the problem too of ‘feeder’ airports with less stringent security – its possible this latest guy may have had no security check whatsoever in Lagos, though he almost certainly had to have gone through some sort of TSA style check in Amsterdam, an airport I know well. Explosive underwear with no metal parts is virtually impossible to defend against anyway with current SOP in airports – only scanners, body searches & the cotton explosives swipe would have a chance. And then of course there’s the new AQ ‘cavity b*mb’: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347847.shtml
The good news is the vast majority of air travelers intend no harm & the lack of successful airline attacks by AQ (or those affiliated or inspired by) since 9/11 suggests its difficult in the first place to find willing & competent suicide b*mbers and also to concoct devices for onboard use with no metal parts.
Anyway – I’m with Steve on this one, look to Israel for their expertise and if one finds oneself in a situation, react aggressively and decisively to quickly take the subject out & eliminate the threat – though bear in mind they are potentially a valuable source of information :):
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
I agree with the punching. Only I would have been going for throat punches. The only good terrorist is a dead one.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
resqr1, I agree with your sentiments, though again, positioning may make throat strikes difficult, especially if the attacker is sitting and the defender is standing. Just something to consider. All the best!
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
I agree with the whole ‘dead terrorist is easier to subdue’ theory. If striking angles seem difficult (almost a certainty if they are seated and you’re standing) then consider ripping at the eyes, ears, and nose. A human can take alot of elbows to the top of the head, but will “usually” instintively try to protect the major senses, thereby possibly opening up a better KO angle while simultaniously keeping their attention occupied on other than the trigger.
Regardless of what your physical response is, bark out loud clear and concise commands for others to help you and what you want them to do. Most will flee, some will step up, but they need to know what to do in context of what you are doing. Nothing worse than someone pulling outward on the same arm you are trying to put your weight onto to control a weapon or trigger. Be assertive, take control. Some one has to.
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i still dont know why they are calling this “attempted terror” it was possibly an attempted bombing. but he did get the response he wanted which is terror. the reason i say possible attempted bombing is he may not have wanted to be or needed to be a martyr.
did anyone here read the story about the Airtran flight with muslims acting up.
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To piggyback a bit on what James said, “verbal commands” are also vital to alert everyone as to who is “good” and who is “bad”. It may not be obviously to those around who were not as observant.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
Paul,
“did anyone here read the story about the Airtran flight with muslims acting up.
”
Was that the one where about 12 muslims, scattered through out the airplane were talking load and aggressive on their cell phones to each other and one was on his computer. All refused to put them away when the flight attendents told them too. It was an on – off again situation with them being removed from the flight then allowed back on after being searched. After being directed to continue the flight, the air crew refused to fly and left the airplane. When a new crew was on board the majority of the passengers refused to fly and left the airplane, causing the flight to be cancelled.Re: christmas terror attack attempt
quote Ryan:To piggyback a bit on what James said, “verbal commands” are also vital to alert everyone as to who is “good” and who is “bad”. It may not be obviously to those around who were not as observant.Good point Ryan, especially if there are Air Marshalls on board. You don’t want them trying to subdue you while you’re trying to subdue a terrorist.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
i believe that was it Brad. lol,
of course chuckles schumer and his travelling twit Kirsten Gillibrand a senator from NY, refused to turn off their cellphones before departure, and continued to talk and be the asses that they are.
Re: christmas terror attack attempt
quote BradM:Paul,
“did anyone here read the story about the Airtran flight with muslims acting up.
”
Was that the one where about 12 muslims, scattered through out the airplane were talking load and aggressive on their cell phones to each other and one was on his computer. All refused to put them away when the flight attendents told them too. It was an on – off again situation with them being removed from the flight then allowed back on after being searched. After being directed to continue the flight, the air crew refused to fly and left the airplane. When a new crew was on board the majority of the passengers refused to fly and left the airplane, causing the flight to be cancelled.I’d heard about the flight, but not the rest of the story about flight crews and passengers. If that’s really how it happened, then I’m surprised the captain didn’t make them all leave. All it takes is for a flight attendant to tell the captain that one of the passengers isn’t cooperating, and they’re gone. The pilot is has legal authority to boot anyone off he so chooses if he feels it can impact the safety of the flight. The one I’m thinking of, I thought they were already enroute.
As for this clown, if I didn’t have a laptop or ball-point pen in my hands I could embed in his skull, I always noticed that knees seem just about face height for people in their seats. There are still plenty of things on a plane that could be used as a weapon.
Those of you that have done drills on the airplane mockup, what was and was not effective in those exercises due to the confined spaces?
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