Coming back from elbow injury?

[ronfromnm]

Hi,

I started training in krav maga last October and really like it. However, my elbows don’t. I hurt my elbow sufficiently badly early last December that I took nearly 2 months off to let it heal. 2 days ago I went back and hurt the other elbow! The injury occurs when I’m the attacker w/ a knife. Today I can barely lift my arm over my head or turn a doorknob. I believe a big part of the issue is I’m 51… was in pretty good shape from crossfit prior to krav maga but losing functionality just from routine knife defense drills isn’t acceptable. My question is if anyone has suggestions on how to strengthen and increase my flexibility in my elbows to allow continued training in krav maga, esp if you’re “older”. I really love it and hate the thought that I can’t do this!!!

[splatcat]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

Hi Ron, & welcome aboard (from a fellow n00b)! :D:

I’ve gotta say, what you’re describing is one thing that makes me distinctly nervous, since I’m only a few short years behind you. I’ve been training in KM for about 2.5 years now, & (thankfully) the only real injury I’ve sustained so far was during ground-fighting. My opponent was supposed to lift his leg over & around my head – he (apparently) didn’t have that much flexibility in his hips, & instead nailed me with a heel-hook to the back of the skull. :OhMy: :(: I didn’t get upset at him, I knew it wasn’t intentional – but it still just JACKED UP my spine all the way down to between my shoulder blades… :thunbsdown: If memory serves, it took a good 6-8 weeks to get back to “normal”…

I’ve said all of that to say that I don’t have a “fail-safe” solution to the questions you’ve posed, but I am looking into ways to minimize the risks and/or address the issue. I’m currently reading Martial Arts After 40
which seems to have some decent info on this subject, esp. pp 177 – 206. I’m also giving serious thought to this book depending on the reviews that I see for it.

For your specific situation, there are two things that come immediately to mind – to avoid having this happen again it might be worthwhile for you to select one or two classmates that you can trust, & work only with them for the short- to medium-term future when performing knife defenses. Let them know that this has been a drill that’s resulted in injury to you, & perhaps ask that they work more slowly during this drill.

The other thought that I had is that (after you’ve recovered from all of the injuries you’ve sustained) you consider training your arms with light weights during your off-days, building up to medium weights, etc. The thought here is that if you can slowly build the strength in those ligaments, it should provide you with a bit more “capacity” to go through the training without suffering a setback.

It should (of course) go without saying that I don’t know your situation/condition/etc., I am NOT a medical professional, YMMV, “do this at your own risk”, yadda yadda, yadda – but these are suggestions that have worked well for others, & my hope is that they’re at least thought-provoking for you, and (ideally) helpful/useful. :beer:

[oglenewinkel-d13]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

Hey Ron

When your attacking with the knife it should be coming from an outside direction or across the body or stright in. Is you partner defending the attack wrist to wrist or are they missing and coming into contact with your elbow joint? It sounds like one of three things are happening.
1. Your attacking very close and the defender is blocking properly but they end up hitting your elbow and not the wrist or forearm
2. Your defender is moving in during the defense and block at the elbow and not the wrist.
3. You attack with such force and your defender is defending at a point too near your elbow and in essence your hyper extending your elbow in the attack. The only realy pain you should have is the forearms.

Otto

[tzrider]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

quote RonFromNM:

Hi,

I started training in krav maga last October and really like it. However, my elbows don’t. I hurt my elbow sufficiently badly early last December that I took nearly 2 months off to let it heal. 2 days ago I went back and hurt the other elbow! The injury occurs when I’m the attacker w/ a knife. Today I can barely lift my arm over my head or turn a doorknob. I believe a big part of the issue is I’m 51… was in pretty good shape from crossfit prior to krav maga but losing functionality just from routine knife defense drills isn’t acceptable. My question is if anyone has suggestions on how to strengthen and increase my flexibility in my elbows to allow continued training in krav maga, esp if you’re “older”. I really love it and hate the thought that I can’t do this!!!

Ron,

What is the nature of the injury or the movement that causes it?

I’m your age and my elbows give me trouble too. Years of overuse in climbing have taken a toll and in my case, the elbows don’t bend as acutely as other people’s. I get flare-ups when I’m holding a pad in a way where it’s possible for the elbow to get folded farther than it wants to go.

I just completed my fourth advanced test this past Saturday and felt pretty good through the whole thing, despite a recent re-injury to the left elbow. I used a tennis elbow brace to help limit movement on that side and it seemed to help. Ongoing, I regularly ice and occasionally resort to Ibuprofen.

With or without the brace, my elbow flexibility is poor enough that I have trouble with plucking chokes from the rear if my partner isn’t really grabbing my neck. Some guys grab by the trapezius, like they’re giving a massage, rather than grabbing the neck. I’ve taken to just shrugging out of the hold, which isn’t much of a hold, until they put me in a proper choke.

[kmman]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

Im 47 and EVERY injury I ever had was a result of a junior level instructors not really knowing what a 40s person can and cannot do or an over zealour partner. This was in KM but in other arts.

I have learned that it is MY responsibility to go at my pace because I will deal with the injury and no one else.

Example: In Karate I was urged to keep kicking higher and higher (high kicks are not my strong point) until my hip was injured. Even though everyone tells you “low kicks are better” still many in class just love those high kicks and drills are as such.

[ronfromnm]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

Thanks to everyone for replying. There are 2 specific knife defense moves done on me by my training partner that seem to aggravate my elbows:

-figure 4 knife disarm
-don’t know the name of it, but after the block the defender hooks high on the arm while holding the wrist w/ the blocking hand and lifts the arm higher than my nose, then takes me down by lifting their leg. Them laying on the arm hurts like hell

Yup to KMMAN… most of the training partners are in their early 20s, double jointed and over-eager.

tzrider, really good suggestion on the elbow brace. I’ve been thinking something that limits how far the elbow can be forced is the solution.

And splatcat, I’ve got the book ‘Ultimate flexibility’ from the same author… unfortunately it only arrived a week before going back and getting re-injured. What I read is the blood flow to the connective tissues decreases w/ age, thus increasing healing time. Getting both strong and flexible seems to be the solution before going back, though it’s probably going to be at least a month before strength/flexibility training will be possible for healing time. Going back to KM will be sometime after that, think I’ll start w/ just one on one sessions w/ the instructor then figure it out from there. Getting older sucks! LOL

[kevinmack]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

I would be interested to know what school you train at since based on your description that doesnt sound like any KM knife defense to me. Most of the traditional KM knife disarms or finsihes to defenses involve cavaliers(wrist locks/controls). The IKMA uses a few locks from Judo/Jiu Jitsu that are similar to a figure 4 lock and a “kimura”. But even those dont sound like what you are describing.
I am 40 years old.
I trained martial arts as a kid and teenage but focused on other things in my 20s with occasional heavy bag/shadowboxing during that time.
In 2001 I got back in to it and found my instructor and start training in KM which reignited my love of martial arts and related fitness modalities.
For the next 8 years I would train KM 2-3 times a week,BJJ 4 times a week,Muay Thai twice a week and for some of those years I also spent some time in JKD and Kali. Plus I lifted weights and worked out 6 days a week while putting in a 60hour work week while going to school for a few of those years.
Now I teach KM 14 hours a week and try to train when ever I can for the past few years.
So I basically overtrained big time in a variety of ways and at different gyms but I only had one serious injury which was two herniated discs in my neck which has also developed chronic pain from arthritis.
Other than that nothing has happened besides basic bumps and bruises. If you just train smart and you have smart instructors we can keep this up till we are 60.

[gonzalo]

Re: Coming back from elbow injury?

Well Since November, I had been having significant pain and swelling in both elbows. I was doing a set of skull crusher, when both elbows just popped. The swelling went down on its own. I haven’t modified, my bench technique at all. Slowly but surely the chronic pain outside the gym has reduced although even a minor bump on the point, of the elbows hurts like hell.

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