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What I am trying to say with the cryptic title is, are there folks who by the nature of the training become overly confident with their abilities to defend themselves physically and potentially fight when they should have ìflightedî (I know that is not a word). You can blame my wife for this topic as she got me started on this last night then went to sleep.
I donít think this over confidence thing is unique to Krav, what is unique to Krav (in my opinion) is that the basic combatives of Krav can be learned fairly quickly (I donít mean that a round house kick from a 3 month student is going to be the same as one from a 2 year student). As such, it seems to me that a Krav student might be particularly prone to over estimating their own ability and underestimating the chaotic and unpredictable nature of a confrontation.
I can take this a step farther and say what if 🙄 you have a more tenured student and they are feeling very confident in their ability (which they should) but have never really had a true ìfightî and then they run across a true mean as heck experienced street fighter. All the training in the world does not make up for a certain level of experience. Not even sparing gets you there although it is at least a step in the right direction (just my opinion). I can tell you that from personal experience having some guyís buddies materialize out of nowhere and beat the holy living dog poop out of you tends to make you think twice about how important that pool table really is in the big picture.
I think another thing that might compound this problem is that Krav also seems to attract some folks who might either have been victimized or bullied in one form or another during their lives. On one hand I think the self-confidence that these types of folks gain is invaluable both for self-defense and just in everyday life. On the other hand I also worry that these people might be even more prone to getting into a situation for which they are not completely prepared.
I will say that the instructors where I go do a good job of trying to insert some restraint and reality into what we are doing. I am not sure that there is anyway of preventing this from occurring with some students. Just wondered what others thought.
over confidence
marine_mojo,
In any discipline ther are going to those that may or may not get to the point of over confidence. However, if they are listening to the instructors and the instructors are teaching Krav properly, the first rule we were taught is flight before fight if at all possible. So sure there could be some out there that may have an agenda ( bullied, mugged, etc.) but most are weeded out by time or by instructor. Some instructors can pick these types of things up and either correct them or release the student. Anyway it’s a valid question whose answer is probably the same in most MA’s.
There is some degree of overconfidence in a lot of my classmates, but I don’t think it’s at a dangerous level in any of us. My idea, even pre-Krav, is that if somebody really wants to kill me, I’ll be dead before I know about the plan, and if some idiot sees me and thinks they’ll have some fun with an easy target, their day is going to suck. Part of that is nobody would pick a fight with me to prove they’re tough…that’s a big difference between the sexes. I’ve only been involved in two altercations in my life, both by choice, both over before they really started so can’t be called fights, and I regret neither of them. On the other hand, I routinely think that I need to get over myself and hit somebody when they do something obnoxious, and I never do, and I usually regret it, but I’d rather regret not hitting somebody than regret hitting them.
Having a certain degree of confidence isn’t a bad thing. Potential attackers might sense that about you and decide to wait for a weaker, easier victim.
Overconfidence however can be dangerous. Don’t go into biker bars looking for trouble just to try out your Krav skills. But I don’t think the average Krav student would do that. Some might, but teachers obviously don’t encourage it, so if you make that mistake I guess it’s your own fault and you’ll have to live with the consequences. 🙁
In our drills the premise is that the Nike defense isn’t open so the only choice is fight or die. I have exercise-induced asthma, so how far would I get anyway?
Actually, I defended myself after 6 weeks in krav (see the RL attacks thread) and at the time I didn’t think I would be able to deal with a crazy person on the street. Those easily learned basic combatives are also effective, and training the amygdala to react immediately and explosively is a good thing. Standing your ground and throwing the bad guy off his (/her) script might be all it takes.
If you’re worried that some drug-crazed ex-con who spent 15 years in prison working out and practicing his fighting style might follow you home, remember, no matter how much muscle he has, his eyeballs are as vulnerable as yours!
\”If you’re worried that some drug-crazed ex-con who spent 15 years in prison working out and practicing his fighting style might follow you home, remember, no matter how much muscle he has, his eyeballs are as vulnerable as yours!\”
No offense, but to me, this comment is the epitome of what MM is referring to here. You give an extreme example of an assailant, then non-chalantly refer to eye strikes like they’re some panacea.
Your only choice is to fight or die? Man, I wish it were that simple.
\”Standing your ground and throwing the bad guy off his (/her) script might be all it takes.\” It may also prepare them. It may make them come harder and with more tact. Maybe not, but it’s certainly possible.
It behooves you to let the situation dictate your response and move away from cookie-cutter mantras which may exacerbate the situation.
I guess I should have probably made it clear that I am not one of those people who think Krav is too violent or breeds a violent attitude. Quite the opposite if you have the right instructor you begin to realize just how dangerous you can be with just hands, elbows, knees and toes, knees and toes. 😉
I have been around more different types of Martial Arts, schools, and students than you can imagine, and as a few have stated, all MA forms tend to build some degree of over confidence in ones ability. Some schools attracted and retained a certain militant student, which quickly led me to a new school.
Ryan is right in my intent, I am not talking about the big drug crazed ex-con, I am talking about the ìnormalî looking guy. Case and pointÖmy Dad. My Dad grew up in a rough area, joined the military that honed his aggressiveness, and came back meaner than a rattle snake. I am not kidding when I say that no other boy at my school ever debated me in that old game of my Dad can beat up your Dad, because he had beat up some of their Dadís. To look at him you would have never known. To fight him you would have made mistake, and trust me at times he did go looking for fights. I have known, some very well, quite a few more folks like my Dad.(guess I am just lucky like that)
So anyway just take it as food for thought. Every now and then when I am working with someone newer than me or perhaps someone who seems to have not been in a confrontation (which of course you can always tell 🙄 ), I like to slip in my penny philosopher comments about what we are doing. Saying things like, ìDo you know what that elbow to the face is going to doî or ìif you actually hit someone with a hammer fist to the Adamís apple they are going to be lucky to get up at allî. That advice and a dollar might buy you some ocean front property in Arizona.
😕Sorry, but I was hoping to continue this topic along these lines. I wanted to also bring up a different angle of the confidence building issue.
What about creating over confidence in \”fighting\” skills compared to \”self-defense\” skills?
The more I go to fight-class or train in combatives the more I find myself visualizing engaging my attacker in a actual fight rather than a two-second defense that eliminates the threat and gets me out of there fast.
So, my question to myself (and others) is: does training through sparring (fight-class, muay thai) dangerously change your mindset to engage in a fight which could be potentially stupid and dangerous?
If I had to label my personal goal and philosophy in Krav, it would be to possess the ability and skill to eliminate any threat or need for a fight. There’s no denying the benefits of fight-class and sparring to work on certain skills, but I can’t help but wonder if I’m shifting my mindset in the wrong direction. Food for thought.
Comments?
Ryan, before I took krav it never would have occurred to me to go for the eyeballs. How is it overconfident to have an arsenal of skills & tactics that could save your life and be willing to use them? The situation I described would have been 100% hopeless for me before krav. Now I’d at least have some chance. Sure, I could still get killed, but I’d put up a better fight on the way down. The whole point is self-defense and tapping into the will to live, not \”if you think you can take him go ahead, and if he’s bigger than you just relax and enjoy it.\” If someone wants to fight me just to fight (not likely, since 1 I’m not a guy and 2 I’m not in high school) then I’d say no thanks.
I think the OP is about people saying \”bring it on\” and I just don’t see that happening in my case. I don’t see that happening in my classmates either. Our drills all start with a life-threatening situation and end with us running to safety. I don’t see how that could create cockiness.
>>The more I go to fight-class or train in combatives the more I find myself visualizing engaging my attacker in a actual fight rather than a two-second defense that eliminates the threat and gets me out of there fast. <<
This is why I haven’t signed up for fight class. I can see how it’s good for reaction time and such but the true self-defense stuff is what I’m in krav for.
Fighting vs. self defense…I think it’s a case-by-case decision.
Personally, if I ever get attacked (not an iffy case, harrassment, etc, but flat-out attacked), I want to take the guy out. I’m extremely predictable, people can set their watches by where I go. It’s not like I’d be in a club getting swung at, I’d be on my way to work or stopping at the grocery after class, the same time every day. The last thing I want is to get out of the situation, only to come back to it the next day, when the guy’s prepared.
This is probably what you mean by engaging the attacker in a fight instead of doing a quick defense, but Krav is a self-defense and FIGHTING system, something that is stressed to us so much at my studio. They do tell us to get out quickly, not to stick around and beat the guy senseless, but also to evaluate the situation and not to put ourselves in greater danger than necessary. I don’t want to have to re-arrange my life to do things differently after an attack, hoping not to be easily found…I want to feel confident that I put myself back into a safe position, and that I can continue with my routine.\”The situation I described would have been 100% hopeless for me before krav.\” People survive violent attacks all of the time, with absolutely no training.
\”How is it overconfident to have an arsenal of skills & tactics that could save your life and be willing to use them?\”
Who said anything about that? You described a VERY dangerous individual, and reduced a potentially deadly situation to a walk in the park because you now know to attack the eyes.
\”This is why I haven’t signed up for fight class. I can see how it’s good for reaction time and such but the true self-defense stuff is what I’m in krav for.\”
Do you get hit in your self defense classes? When you’re defending a two hand choke, for example, does your partner \”act\” or react? Do they try to hit you and grab you while you’re defending?
Fight classes have pros and cons, but to relegate them to an exercise in reaction time is truly missing the point.
Does any one remember the sene in the Last Samuri? Tom is teaching a guy how to shoot and the Gen. comes up and says they are ready for battle. Tom quickly stands in front of the guy shooting and puts him under pressure and the guy can’t hit the side of a barn.
If youdon’t go to fight night, you really have no idea how you will react.It is totaly different when punches and kicks are coming at you. I would suggest going to fight night, that would be the one class you should never miss.
What I have learned in KM is \”humble confidence\”. I know what an elbow can do, knee to the face, etc. I don’t want to fight, I hope I never have to, but if I do, I know what I can do.
I think the question is, would I stand and fight now that I know KM, where as not fighting before KM. Yes, I think I would stand my ground now, where as before I would have walked away faster. Does that mean I want to fight more, no, it means I’m just going to stand my ground.
Dangerous overconfidence….
I would like to give a big resounding yes to the original poster of this topic. This may not be a yes for everyone, but it is a yes for me.
Since I have taken Krav, I have developed both a healthy and unhealthy sense of confidence. I believe that everything that people have posted above about a healthy level of confidence is correct. However, here is my problem:
Scenario #1 – I hate SUV’s, especially Suburbans and H2’s. At lunch a few weeks back, some friends of mine from work all went to a very popular diner near the office. The parking lot was packed, and as we were driving through looking for a spot, there was an H2 in front of us. The last two spots left in the parking lot were right next to each other, and of course the jerk in the H2 takes up both spaces. We park on the street. As we are walking up, the guy (of course by himself driving a vehicle that carries a ton of people and gets 6 MPG) is still at his H2 messing with something in his breifcase. My friend who was driving says something quietly under his breath to us about how the guy cant even work his breifcase much less park, then I say out loud so he can hear it \”Douchbags that drive giant vehicles should learn how to park.\” The guy heard it, but of course did not make eye contact with any of the 3 guys walking past him.
Scenario #2 – I hate smokers, espcially the ones that think the world is their ashtray and can flick their cigarette butts anywhere they like. I was walking through the park the other day, and some parent was watching their kids play on the park toys. He flicked his cigarrette butt into the grass behind him as I was walking by. I said \”Thanks for making the world a more beautiful place with your cigarrette butt.\” His head twitched so I know he heard me, but when he saw me he quickly averted his eyes and acted like he didn’t hear me.
I was not looking to start a fight in either situation. Doing Krav has not made me hate these people. I hated cigarrette flickers and H2’s long before I started Krav. The difference is that now I am not afraid of confrontation (which is healthy) so I say what is on my mind in situations that might result in a conflict (which is unhealthy). I have had to adjust my personality to deal with this new-found confidence, so that I can take advantage of the good without getting myself in trouble with the bad.
As an interesting side note, I have found the wisdom of Tyler Durden from Fight Club to be true. It is much harder to start a fight than you think. Most people are so scared of confrontation that when I make these snide remarks they look away, pretend they didn’t hear me, etc…
Of course, Ill be screwed when I make the wrong comment to the wrong person, so thats what I have to keep under control.
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