- This topic has 17 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 9 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
All,
I have been thinking and curious to what everyone’s view is on this topic.
Since Krav is not a traditional art and usually informal do you think that takes away from the respect towards your other students and/or instructor?
I think it depends on the person. I initially started in a TMA, with the whole bowing, yes sensei, etc etc. I thought this was establishing discipline and respect. And probably at 18 it was. But not I am not so sure.
When I started Krav my fellow students would joke and talk during class. I was so in awe by this sinec I was used to a TMA and normally we didn’t joke or whatnot. We were there to learna nd not play. Since taking krav my view has changed. I believe a lot can be learned while being informal in a class.
So imagine that @ 33 years young I can still learn something.
I would love to hear thoughts on this.
Thanks,
I took other traditional martial arts before (tkd, kenpo, shotokan), I was expected to act a certain way, be polite ,don’t talk, stay in the back of the class, NEVER wear sneakers on the dojo floor, etc. Then I took my first Krav class. I showed up, took off my sneakers, bowed to the sensei, and went to the back of the class.
When the class started I was waiting for instruction but quickly started following everybody else. About ten minutes into class (which was a killer) I saw people leaving the mats to get a drink of water! I didn’t know it was \”acceptable\”. first thought was these students disrespecting the teacher. After the class was over, the instructor was interested in how I like the class. I loved it, but was confused over proper \”ettiquette\” of the school, I even had a hard time calling him by his first name.
That was 1 yr ago. I like the informal aspect of the school, and teaching and have all the respect for the instructors that teach at the school, and that teach in this system. I feel you get to know the instructors and students on a more personal level, which makes it easier to ask for advice on techniques, etc. I think it also keeps peoples egos in check as well.
Well,
You can see that the response/view ratio is way out of whack. I suspect that is because many of the traditionalists don’t want to say anything that may be viewed as disrespectful. I too spent many a class in the horse stance. I was looking inside myself for the true meaning of the \”glow\”. It was then that I found out what a true \”warrior\” was made of, lol……..
I am not a fan of tradition at all. In fact, I find it almost humorous. Kids might be impressed with this stuff, but I think it’s nonsense. I don’t need my students bowing to me every five seconds and hiding in the back of class. Not exactly inviting is it. I often joke around with my students it puts them at ease. We are not curing cancer. We are not creating cyborgs either. I want them to know that I am totally approachable. I encourage it and Roger (the best instructor in the world) who has more awards in Martial Arts than I can count. He hates anything that resembles tradition. Hell I don’t even think he likes bowing out of class at the end of class.
Eight years of Shin Shin Toitsu style Aikido have left a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the traditional arts. The closed systems that are rigid with tradition are basically useless on today’s streets. Many traditional arts are almost cult like in their approach to running a dojo. Too many questions about why things are done a certain way, and people are pointing you towards the door for being disrespectful. When students would question why techniques did not seem to work under pressure or with someone that was not a student, people were told \”It’s not that Aikido doesn’t work, it’s that your Aikido doesn’t work\”. After 8 years I just couldn’t handle the bullshit anymore.
As I’ve posted before on the forum, I learned more practical self defense in 6 months from James and Shannon Hiromasa than I learned in 8 years of serious Aikido practice. Krav is practical, easy to learn, and bullshit free. It is evolving and always seeking to improve itself. At my school, the classes are fast paced, fun, and ball breakingly hard. I get more than I pay for, and my promotions and rank are based on my demonstrated ability, not how much ass I kiss and how humble I act.
I feel like kidnapping my old dojo buddies and bringing them to class to be deprogramed from the brain-washing they have received.one of the main reasons why i chose KM was because is wasn’t filled with formal/traditional nonsense. i like it when someone cracks a joke in class. as serious as self defense is it should still be fun.
when i was a new student psyops said something in class that had a lasting impression on me. on the street, an attacker isn’t going to bow, get in his stance and attack. no, he’s gonna rush you and try to take your fu#king head off!
so no, i don’t believe in formalities.
My class is bookended by Kung Fu on both ends. I get to see the traditional style of bowing and respect and all that stuff. I think it is great. It fits the art. Krav is not a traditional art. I think is fine for an art like Krav Maga to not have Katas and the like. If the culture of an art fits traditional mat ediquite (sp?), then go for it. I am sure we are not the only art without traditional ritual.
This is a great topic. I often wonder the same thing myself. As I have never practiced anything other than KM, I do not have a perspective other than what friends tell me. I am quite proud that KM offeres the flexibility to be yourself. Hey, it you in the fight for your life.
I think the best way to show respect to an instructor is to listen well and immediatly employ the corrections they ask you to. As well ,treat the last repitition with the same intensity as the first. I espically like using a new technique in fight class immediatly after learning the technique.
I will often let my instructor know when the KM he has taught me has assisted me on the job (saved my butt). I am very greatful to KM and my instructor. Not to sound like a dork, but it has changed my life.
I do believe that Krav is less traditional than any martial art but there is formality. Smple things that include respecting your instructors and your fellow students. I think that it is passed down as tradition by the students who take the classes. A newbie will not be disrespectful or casual if they don’t see others in the class do the same.
I also appreciate humor in class while discussing technique or being critiqued but by the instructor not by some student. All I know is that if you have time to joke around your not working hard enough. When the instructor is teaching I’m busy listening while catching my breathe before the next round.
I also like the tradition of bowing in and out of KM class. It may seem stupid but it gives me focus and purpose to start and at the end it lets me know I got through another challenging class.
Re:
quote \”Little-Looper\:I do believe that Krav is less traditional than any martial art but there is formality. Smple things that include respecting your instructors and your fellow students. I think that it is passed down as tradition by the students who take the classes. A newbie will not be disrespectful or casual if they don’t see others in the class do the same.I also appreciate humor in class while discussing technique or being critiqued but by the instructor not by some student. All I know is that if you have time to joke around your not working hard enough. When the instructor is teaching I’m busy listening while catching my breathe before the next round.
I also like the tradition of bowing in and out of KM class. It may seem stupid but it gives me focus and purpose to start and at the end it lets me know I got through another challenging class.
You bow in and out of KM class? Interesting!
I see I am not alone in feeling the same way about TMA. I think back now and realize that it almost was cult like to be in a TMA. Bow upon enterein, bow before leaving and shouting Sayanora (SP). I do believe that my TMA training has helped give me an excellent base for my techniques.
Re:
quote \”SexyBaldMan\:I see I am not alone in feeling the same way about TMA. I think back now and realize that it almost was cult like to be in a TMA. Bow upon enterein, bow before leaving and shouting Sayanora (SP). I do believe that my TMA training has helped give me an excellent base for my techniques.I’m a huge fan of traditional (especially Chinese) martial arts & I believe that anyone with a solid backgroud in any traditional art will have skills and physical wherewithal to be an excellent Krav Maga practitioner.
I do want to make clear a distinction between following tradtion and showing respect. There are so many instructors out there that blindly follow \”tradition\” without ever questioning the purpose and true intention of it. It is almost pathological in the way these people desperately cling to the past. The best example: \”That’s the way my teacher taught me, so that’s how I’m going to teach you.\” \”Tradition\” in these instances are used as a tool to boost that person’s perceived authority or authenticity. They pick and chose the traditions to follow and even change the tradition to fit their need. The \”traditions\” students are supposed to follow in their schools are purposely designed to maintain a hierarchical relationship and power-over mentality that only serves to keep the instructor in this fabricated Godhead type postion which allows no room for questioning or dissent.
Now I’m not saying that all tradition is bad – it does serve a purpose, but it has to meaningful to you and not just blind obedience to an idea that may or may not be socially or culturally relevant. Tradition is the tool of those in power to remain in power (whether that power be social, political, moral, whatever). Just look at the way State and Church leaders throw around the word today. \”Traditional\” values, \”traditional\” marriage, \”traditional\” roles of the woman. If we stuck by tradition for tradition’s sake, then we’d still be in the freakin’ Dark Ages.
I’m lucky, I guess, that in all my training in traditional arts, I have had amazing teachers that acknowledged the role of tradition, but also realized we don’t live in 1885 China. We didn’t have McDojo rules, but we still showed the utmost respect to our teacher and to each other. Questions aren’t a sign of disrepect, they are a sign of interest and dedication to truly understanding the lesson being taught.
Traditional arts are about a lot more than just protecting oneself and they contain many, many important life lessons. All these rules and traditions are great for kids (heck, they aren’t getting taught how to be part of a community/society in school), but we are adults and by now should be responsible for our own actions. Krav Maga has roots in the military, but by joining a Krav class, I didn’t enlist & I don’t expect to be treated like I did.
. . .post is getting too long. . .I’ll finish up this thought in the next. . .
Thanks Nick for the reply. Would you happen to the the Nick at KMNova. 🙂 If so, I am jason, if ya didn’t already know. 😀
Ok, following up on that last statement. . .
Sometimes I get a little lax in my classes & let people get away w/ things I’m sure some other instructors wouldn’t (I’m looking at you KMS 😯 ), but, like I said, I’m not running an Army Boot Camp. These guys are all coming in on their own & getting out of class what they put in. Now I like to mess around & joke as much as the next guy (maybe even a little more 😳 ), but there is a line & I won’t let someone sit around & chat for 5 minutes or continue behavior disruptive to the class. Sure, we’ll joke, we’ll talk, but these same guys will also put out 150% and bust their asses for me when I ask them to. (KMS, SBM, Navy, Chris, whoelse in on here?). They’ll also be the first to greet new students, ask questions, and shake my hand after a good class (& yes, even after a not-so-good class).
IMHO, forcing them to follow an ambiguous and culturally & contextually irrelevant set of guidelines only there for the purpose of falsely placing me on a pedestal is just silly. I’m on that pedestal, that position of respect, of being a Krav Maga instructor because I have demonstrated (through my teachings and other actions) that I deserve to be there, not because I’m the 32nd lineage holder of blah-blah fu and the only one with the knowledge of the secret black hand techniques (which of course are much to deadly to show you). I have my students respect because I earned it & they have earned my respect in the same way. We’re a community, not a kingdom and at the end of the day when people walk out of my class after having fun, having a great workout, and feeling confident that the tools they learned can protect them on the street, well, then that’s all I can ask for.
Re:
quote \”SexyBaldMan\:Thanks Nick for the reply. Would you happen to the the Nick at KMNova. 🙂 If so, I am jason, if ya didn’t already know. 😀Yep & yep, I knew (Navy gave it away).
I’ve been on the following along on the forum, but haven’t posted. As you can tell I have some strong feelings about adult learning, community building/maintaing, & traditions. I am doing my Ph.D. on this stuff after all. 😉I gotta be honest & say that when I first started Krav I though that everyone would have that Boot Camp mentality (which IMO, is just another manifestation of the standard \”traditional\” reply to any question of \”do as I say & don’t ask questions), but I’ve been really impressed by the openness, sincerity, & humility of just about everyone I’ve encountered so far. It’s amazing that in my own experience as a student, I can be pushed and pushed and brought to the breaking point and afterwards smile and THANK the instructor for what they’ve put me through. As instructors, we can be real assholes during class, but after class it’s back to our normal likeable selves (well, most of us anyway 😈 ).
I will preference my comments with the following, I have been involved in very traditional and very very non-traditional (like peoples back yards) type of martial arts.
IMO Krav seems to have a fairly good mix between structure and informality. Admittedly I have only trained in Krav at 2 schools with the same basic set of instructors.
The example that comes to mind (watch out here comes a military story) is how the Marines treat marksmanship in boot camp. The marksmanship training takes place after you have been at boot for a few hell filled ceremony learning weeks. You get to the rifle range and the constant yelling and stress gets turned down a notch. I think this is done for a couple of reasons, but most importantly it is much easier to learn when you are not constantly worried about getting yelled at and executing the perfect right face.
I think that when MA schools focus on all of the periphery of tradition it adds unneeded and distracting stress to the whole experience. This tends to slow down the overall learning curve, and at least as I understand it, Krav likes to shorten that basic defense learning curve as much as possible.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
