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Hey all, I’ve been away from a KM school for a while, but I’ve been trying to train by myself to keep the L1 stuff I learned in my 3-4 months of classes alive. I was \”going over my notes\” in my head today and wanted to get an opinion on something.
For front choke defense, I’ve always preferred a one-hand pluck because after the strike to the face it’s pretty natural to get your arm on the attacker’s neck and start delivering a lot of knees. However, I recognize that there will probably be times that you might need to go to a 2-hand pluck (maybe for a bigger attacker with a stronger grip, something like that).
My question is once you do a two-hand pluck out, I always thought you kept the attacker’s hands pinned in close to your body in the area of your collar bone, then deliver the simultaneous groin kick/knee counterattack. After that, what do you all do for combatives? I’m never sure what to do because the attacker’s arms are holding my upper body back, which would keep me from extending a shoulder fully and getting off a full-out punch.
I guess one more thing I’m assuming here is that the attacker is at a pretty good distance with close to full arm extension on the choke. Close range is a different deal altogether.
Thoughts?
I think that once you’ve put a couple of kicks into the attacker’s family jewels he’ll probably be doubled over. At that point, clear one or both of his hands and go in with knees, elbows, or a quick sidestep and deliver a hammer fist to the back of his neck. That’ll put him down. 😈
Also agree!
Choosing comabtives, especially based on distance has been a bit of a struggle for me at full speed. However I think the beauty of KM is that there is no rigid form to follow, other than the self defense itslef and typically the simultaneous counter attack. Seeing openings, and choosing the right attack is obviously inportant in a fight – Which is where you find yourelf after the SD tecjnique. As CarpeCanis pointed out, you should be thinking ahead of where your attacker is likely to be positioned after a strike – For example, a groin or gut shot should bring the head forward, possibly forward and down setting up punches, knees or hammer fists. A shot to the grill should bring the groin forward, etc …
Been away recovering from shoulder injury, but I’ll take a shot at this:
You have to pluck and groin kick at the same time. Reason being the groin kick takes the strenght factor away. There is no way a 100 lbs. person will be able to pluck the choke of a 200 lbs. person. Now once that is done, we were told to release one hold in order to use combatives, most of the time palm or even elbow should be there. Important part is to keep contact with the choker, meaning don’t let go of the one of the plucked hands and keep it against your chest or shoulder. This will help you get into knees faster and quickly and if you manage that, the fight should soon be over, knees are a finisher. Plus if there are multiple attackers/friends you now control one of them and can use as shield against other attackers.
This might piss off some people here, but if you get choked, make sure you destroy that person, he was trying to kill you, ask a cop, there is only one reason some one tries to choke you. It is important that you remember that and that is your mind set if it should ever happen.
Actually, the pluck should work for a 100 pound person against a 200 pound attacker, because it is based on making an explosive movement that he will be unable to resist, not on going strength against strength. If the person is a lot bigger, you may not be able to make the hands fly back very far, but it should be enough to be able to release the pressure and then the counters should do the rest.
Also, the groin kick shouldn’t land before you have released the choke, because that might cause the attacker to grab your throat even stronger, in reaction to the pain (his muscles, including his hand muscles, will tighten up, making a defense harder).
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GiantkillerThanks for the suggestions everyone. It’s sort of interesting that when you train, your opponent doesn’t simulate the reaction to getting kicked full-out in the goolies, with the accompanying pitch forward, placing the face right into knee range, etc.
I have the feeling that in a real self-defense situation, if I had the presence of mind to pluck and kick, I would hopefully be able to extend that in the right way until the fight was over.
Anyway, all part of the training. Thanks again.
The instructors at my KM school always stress that we should perform a minimum of three combatives after dealing with the choke, and try to mix them up each time we practice. That way we don’t end up forming our own personal katas. This is excellent advice which, I’ll admit, I sometimes forget to follow.
We covered the one-hand pluck & strike again the other night. I, like you, felt the natural follow up to the strike was to grab my opponent in the control position and then give him a knee or five. The instructor pointed out that, if you’ve just slammed the heel of your hand into the underside of your attacker’s jaw, he’s more than likely to take a step or two back. That may take him out of quick grab & knee range. In which case punches, palm heels or even front kicks may be more appropriate. So, while it’s good to practice w/ the knees, you should make sure to practice w/ medium and long range combatives as well.
In the end I think that, should you find yourself in that situation, you’ll instictively use the appropriate combative for the posture and distance of your attacker.
I gotta add my agreement to dkst’s post. A choke is a lethal attack and you should respond accordingly.
A finger or two in the throat always works for me after the one handed pluck followed by knees, etc….
\”A finger or two in the throat always works for me after the one handed pluck followed by knees, etc….\”
Is that called the \”clavical notch\” or something like that?
I was taught to palm heel to the face simultaneously with the single pluck – then combatives such as knees, groin kicks, elbows, etc.
Unless you are unaware and/or unconscious, don’t let the hands get around your neck in the first place. You should already be bringing your hands up in a reaction defense to prevent the choke. You should also learn how to move those on-coming hands to the side/apart to get into the \”grappling\” range. Knees, elbows, and headbutts would now follow. Maybe a bite, eye gouge, or trachia hit would work at this time. Go after them with all you have. Keep hitting until the subject’s goals change. If this choke does occur, hook those hands and clear the immediate threat to the throat. This in turn should cause the subject to \”flinch\” subconsciously. In a half-beat tempo, before subject regains the conscious ability to defend, the kick should be launched hard into the A-frame (groin area). Continue to move forwards attacking vital spots. (Train to strike those vital spots.) In the classroom you will back off when that initial kick is launched. That can lead mistakes in the actual situation. There should not be a hesitation after any strike and there should be constant attack. Let him/her cry or scream but finish the job. Your training partner should be reacting as a bad guy to give you the actual sound and visual effects.
\”Unless you are unaware and/or unconscious, don’t let the hands get around your neck in the first place. You should already be bringing your hands up in a reaction defense to prevent the choke.\”
I agree 100% with that.
\” In the classroom you will back off when that initial kick is launched. That can lead mistakes in the actual situation. There should not be a hesitation after any strike and there should be constant attack.\”
Agree with that too. However, in the our classroom, we were not taught to back off after the initial kick ws launched. Our instrustor emphisized continuing the attack until the attacker (bad guy) was no longer a threat. Our instructor said, even if you don’t do a technique right or miss a technique to continue and not stop.
Personally I believe the two handed pluck with the kick to the groin at the same time is the best starter, since a single handed pluck with a palm to the face wouldn’t work as well. For one thing their unplucked hand would be in the way. For another, the balance needed due to a comon push that usually occurs when a choke is done makes the kick vital to the defense. And can be done either when no push takes you off ballance or if it throws you back a foot. After that as many combatives as needed in any order works.
BradM
It’s called the Sternal Notch! And having someone put two fingers in there with an in and downward pressure is a great repellent.
It was stated earlier that Three combatives or more after each defensive move. Right on the $$$$
Don’t get hung up on which to use, just use something and keep fighting. As long as you go home unharmed, noone will care how many combatives you threw. But for training purposes three is minimum. I teach students to use a variety of combatives so they don’t necessarily need to think too much about one or the other, moreso a reaction to the circumstance is what is necessary. IMHO
JL, thanks for the name clarification. When I re-read my post, I knew I was off base with the term I used.
The Sternal Notch is a good repellant. But, I’ve found that it can sometimes be difficult to administer, meaning if our fingers aren’t placed just right it won’t be effective. Another problem is if the attacker’s arms are longer than yours you may not be able to reach his neck area enough to execute the technique. But, no doubt it does work if executed properly.
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