Grappling Vs. Striking

[kravron]

Why do you say that? Our conditioning is probably better than alot of other MA’s out there. Just because we train for the explosion doesnt mean we cant last in a prolonged fight.

[jl]

Striking or grappling

G.V.
they must take it easy on you where you train. Most street fights last a few minutes if that….in our class we train for a 15 minute or longer fight. three rounds per student 5 min. each rd. all out. We also do multiple attackers albeit not as long.
Did everyone forget the most basic fundemental of Krav Maga? When attacked respond quickly and end it (combatives), when no eminent danger poses itself walk away. Some people are always looking for the next guy to provoke into fighting ( the proverbial spilling of ones drink when walking by in your favorite but crowded tavern). None of us are ever going to change that. The idea is to make quick work of the attacker and get out of there. Isn’t it?

[keith327th]

Right on MikeD.

We had a guy who was pretty skilled in BJJ in our dojo a few weeks ago. I’ve only been in Krav Maga for about 7 months. He was showing us some grappling and building on the groundwork that we learn… And kicking my butt.

Then our instructor took us out back on the pavement and had us do a little grappling. So much for all the fancy BJJ that got me in trouble on the mat. I don’t care if you’re Royce Gracie, there’s a huge difference between the pavement and the mat. If someone mounts me and wants to have their patella digging into the concrete, so be it. As long as I can get them off, (kick off from the guard with kicks to the face, etc.) I think I’d do okay.

I’d also like to point out that any Gracie could most likely kick my butt anywhere!

[g-v]

Re: Striking or grappling

quote \”JL\:

G.V.
they must take it easy on you where you train. Most street fights last a few minutes if that….in our class we train for a 15 minute or longer fight. three rounds per student 5 min. each rd. all out. We also do multiple attackers albeit not as long.
Did everyone forget the most basic fundemental of Krav Maga? When attacked respond quickly and end it (combatives), when no eminent danger poses itself walk away. Some people are always looking for the next guy to provoke into fighting ( the proverbial spilling of ones drink when walking by in your favorite but crowded tavern). None of us are ever going to change that. The idea is to make quick work of the attacker and get out of there. Isn’t it?

I’m not talking about most street fights, JL. Most street fights don’t involve trained fighters. Some idiot with more beer in him than skill will likely find himself rocked squaring up against you or me, as that’s exactly the type of thing we train for…surprise attacks, explosive power, attacks to vital areas and lots of them.

I’m referring more to some dude that trains in competative fighting…boxer, mui tai, wrestler/grappler, etc. I can’t imagine it being a cake-walk taking on an opponent that trains for prolonged fighting. They’re used to taking a punch and fighting under deficit (you WON’T take their leg out with one kick to the outside thigh), and most importantly, are keyed into the unleashed agressiveness we practice during combatives in our respective km classes. So, take away all those fun things that make krav maga what krav maga is, I’m not so sure how it would stand up to someone trained in competative fighting, such as a MMA. There’s a reason you won’t find one fighter in UFC, Pride, or KOTC laying claim to krav maga as their martial art of choice. Well, actually there *was* one Israeli dude in a UFC match a while back, but he lost the bout.

Krav training goals are entirely different, which is coolio by me. I take it to bail my ass out when confronted by some punk, not to challenge trained fighters.

[kurtuan]

MMA fighters don’t lay claim to Krav because it would be a waste of their training time since throat strikes, eye gouges, and the like are illegal in MMA matches…..

[kurtuan]

not to mention gun, knife and stick defenses….

[g-v]

Re:

quote \”Kurtuan\:

MMA fighters don’t lay claim to Krav because it would be a waste of their training time since throat strikes, eye gouges, and the like are illegal in MMA matches…..

Yes, I said as much in another thread a while back. Intentionally breaking your opponents elbow joint would be a no no as well. You’re talking about a significant portion of KM curriculum though, Kurt. 😉

[klem]

Re:

quote \”G.V.\:

Any experienced fighter (striker or grappler) will pose a problem to a krav student.

I agree. So would an experienced street fighter, a linebacker, a 300 pound Strongman competitor who throws around anchors for fun, a person on a crazed PCP high, a person with a weapon (regardles that we train to defend against them, a person with a knife or a baseball bat, not to mention a gun, is a problem), or a person who just doesn’t give a damn about his personal well being. I think that any of the above examples would be a problem for any martial art student. I also think that a KM student could be a problem for any of the above.

I think your comparison of an experienced fighter ro a Krav student is apples to oranges. It sounds as if you’re talking about a person who has spent more time fighting than the student has been practicing KM. Of course they would have an advantage. I could say any experienced krav student will pose a problem to an inexperienced grappling student.

In the end it comes down to individual vs individual.

[g-v]

Re:

quote \”Klem\:

In the end it comes down to individual vs individual.

Yes, I’d agree with that. But no, I wasn’t referring to a level one student paired off with a master-level mui tai boxer, so there’s no apple/orange comparison at work here.

[clfmak]

I don’t think that Israeli guy was a krav guy. Anyway, he didn’t do very good at all. As I recall, he tried a low to mid level side kick, and the other guy (Mark Coleman, maybe) threw him down and took him out on the ground.

[clfmak]

A while ago, a friend of mine, who took a few muay thai lessons, was trying to tell me that he could take me on, believing that leg kicks had no defense outside muay thai. He asked what I’d do if he did a low roundhouse kick to my leg. I told him I’d step my lead leg back and chop down his leg with a machette- totally legitemate FMA defense. That was my smartass way of demonstrating the apples and oranges thing. If I was a combat handgun shooter, I would have said \”I would have stepped back and shot you repeatedly.\”
However, that whole mentality gets old when it comes to grappling, because that excuse of \”I’d gouge your eyes out\” usually indicates a total lack of groundfighting principles, by those who haven’t rolled with a good grappler, who would use the opportunity to break an arm or something. There is something of a apples and oranges about comparing martial arts- I wouldn’t try to compare capoeira with krav, or BJJ with kendo- they’re entirely different. Some can be proven in structured environments, and some can’t. Some don’t even focus on real world fighting. Some are all about \”no nonsense self defense\” while others practice with weapons that aren’t even used anywhere (I don’t see myself getting into a spear fight).

[fightin-irish]

My 2 cents on the topic

This debate will never end, so I thought I’d add to the controversy. Ideally, in a street situation you want to strike. It’s main advantage is the option to retreat the instant the initial attack is neutralized. But your field of perception is also much greater and that allows you to see and address any additional threats.
That being said, few streetfights occur under ideal conditions. There’s the sucker punch, the ambush mugging, slipping on wet pavement, etc….You get the idea. So it is esssential that ALL fighters develop their ground skills. Ground escapes and takedown defenses are particularly practical. It’s also good to just get comfortable on the ground so you dont go into panic mode the second you hit the pavement.
On the down side, you don’t want to be going for an armbar when your opponent’s two friends show up and put the boots to your skull; Or working a kimura when your opponent pulls out his boot knife and sticks you in the ribs.
I guess my main point is this. Fighting is fast, ugly, dynamic, and unpredictable. Prepare yourself to fight on your feet and on your back.
I’ve found the practical elements of BJJ compliment KM very well.
One more thing. A lot of \”street\” guys have the mentality that \”sport\”MMA is unrealistic and has no street application. I consider myself a \”street\” guy and I’ve found that nothing could be further from the truth. Sport MMA teaches you range and movement. It gives you a chance to test your defenses against full speed techniques and feel what it’s like to be hit with malice. It shows you how physically exhausting ground fighting can be. It gives you a taste of your limitted movement and narrowed perception on the ground. Do it often! Just be sure to finish with controlled drills (eye gouges, head butts, groin kicks, etc.) so you aren’t in \”sport\” mode when your life is on the line.

[jl]

grappling v. striking

G.V.
I was comparing apples and oranges. I misunderstood where you were coming from. The point you made about trained fighters pretty much right on.

Krav V. MMA is not worth the argument. Too much of a controlled environment to compare to a street fight. The street has too many variables to predict where it will end up. Hopefully the first salvo of strikes will get it done.

[kurtuan]

Re:

quote \”G.V.\:

Yes, I said as much in another thread a while back. Intentionally breaking your opponents elbow joint would be a no no as well. You’re talking about a significant portion of KM curriculum though, Kurt. 😉

G.V. That’s exactly my point. Take away the weapon defenses and survival / street tactics then you just have a combination of boxing, muay thai, and a little BJJ. So I guess I agree that if a MMA competitor attacked me in the street and I had to fight by MMA rules I’d be in big trouble. However if I could slip in a \”cheap shot\” in order to incapacitate him long enough for me to get away then I \”win\” (survive).

I also understand that most MMA competitors have excellent conditioning and are used to taking a punch, but that would just raise the ante for me. I would feel that I would have to do something more \”extreme\” in order to survive since I know that I may not be able to \”go the distance.\” So if I knew an attacker was a trained MMA fighter, I’d probably do things that I wouldn’t neccessarily do to the \”average\” untrained, unarmed attacker, like bite if I was put in a grappling situation, or use improvised weapons.

I think this is comparing apples to oranges if for nothing else the \”rules\” change in a street environment…

[g-v]

Re:

Now now, boys..I never mentioned MMA match rules or street rules, or Gene rules(read: my rules) or whatever. Anyways, I said my piece and would just be repeating myself at this point. Chow.

[Author]

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