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I’de like to get some opinions on groundwork here and what you think are the absolute minimums one would need to know.
I ask because after watching the various MMA bouts (UFC, etc) along with the MMA reality shows (spike TV) , there has been one overwhelming theme and that is that the strikers (punchers/kickers) have won 90% of the the matches. I keep hearing that BJJ rules these fights but the only submission out of all of these was a guillotine on the last UFC, the rest were knockouts, win by rounds, etc. (I understand they are not streetfights but they are as close as we can legally get to watch)
The chances of running into a BJJ expert in a street fight are somewhat slim, so would you agree that as a minimum you need to be able to control your self enough to get back on your feet from the guard/mount (or any) position?
**This is not intended to bash anyone so do not start, it is more a question of what is the minimum needed on the ground if you are still developing your standup and do not have time to attend multiple schools***
I think the submission holds learnt in grappling are useless on the street.
Escapes and reversals that eventually turn into a ground and pound type thing are GOLD!Just for your knowledge, BJJ guys are not the only ones you need to watch out for in terms of takedowns. Aside from wrestlers and judoka, any decent kid who went through high school football/rugby/lacrosse knows how to tackle.
You’re definitely on the right track with your \”minimum criteria\”, but you also should add learning how to prevent takedowns in the first place. In the most simplest terms, you should also learn a solid sprawl and balance from clinched positions. If you ever watch footage of reall fights, people tend to grab hair or fabric while being in real tight without an understanding of their balance or the opponent’s balance. It is usually from this distance that people get twisted down or thrown down, sometimes accidently.
Just some things to think about. And BTW, there is no such thing as \”anti-grappling\” without understanding grappling.
Here’s an interesting article which talks about the background of some fighters.
http://www.themat.com/pressbox/pressdetail.asp?aid=12084
As for absolute minimums, I think on the old forum John posted some information about this in more detail. It included defending and executing takedowns/throws,control, escapes and reversals on the ground and a few basic submissions. The thing is that in order to train to escape these, you first have to know how to execute them succesfully. Otherwise it’s the blind leading the blind.
Then there’s also this:
javascript:emoticon(‘:lol:’)
Laughinghttp://www.rosiestorey.com/Royce_Gracie_vs_Kung_Fu_Expert.wmv
I think having basic ground fighting skills is very important. You don’t have to be a submisssion artist, but knowing escapes and reversals as well as keeping a good position (such as the mount) could be very important in a street fight, if you happen to end up on the ground. Of course, it’s always better to knock someone out right away without going to the ground, but you won’t always have that choice. It doesn’t even have to be a takedown, could be that you are tripping over something as you are struggling with the guy and you are both going down, then you would want to know what to do.
One thing to keep in mind when looking at UFC statistics is also that those are professional fighters, equal in skill and weight, so it’s much harder for each of the fighters to catch the other one in a specific lock (because the opponent is ready for it, knows how to escape etc). If you were in a street fight and you are a much better ground fighter than the other guy of course it would be easier. But I agree that trying to catch people in locks would probably not be practical, unless you are willing to break whatever you are in the position to break, quickly, and then either get out of there or continue to pummel him.
I actually think that it’s quite possible to run into someone, who has at least some basic ground fighting skills. There are quite a lot of BJJ schools and as Revancha pointed out also wrestling schools, Judo and other types of ground fighting, so better to be prepared.
I think its useful to learn baisic breakfalls, but maybe not essential. In my opinion, some of the most useful moves are:
The mount- the essential dominant position. From here, learn to cross choke and arm bar. Strikes and such shouldn’t require much practice. Learn to use your knees to either pin the chest or arm (I guess this could be considered a different position).
Side control- good to know as a transition, and maybe learn how to crank the arm from there.
Rear mount- from here, learn to o a rear naked choke hold, and learn how to immobilize the arms (a friend of mine, who was a CIF state champ wrestler, said its better to immobilize the arms until they try to move, then move them to one side and go for the choke- this prevents an ankle lock).
Nelsons- even though they don’t do a whole lot of damage, they are good holds to control someone.
Kicks- for self defense, you should know how to kick to keep an opponent away. Front kick style stomp to the groin, side kick to the knee, shovel kick to knee/shin, linear and circular double leg scissors.I think its funny how its gone to learning standup, because most MMA matches are won my knockout. Remember a few years ago, when it was you have to learn groundfighting, because a good groundfighter can easilly take out any standup fighter?
It is a cycle, people forgot about ground fighting because in the past it was labeled not effective…Oops!!! Gracies capitialized on this hole in peoples skill set in the MMA arena.
Once everyone fixed that hole(in MMA), it is back to trying to prevent going to ground so you can strike. Even Gracies like Renzo fight standing up. But boy those early UFC were fun to watch!!!
It is a critical skill to have but in real fighting it is something to try to avoid, not capitialize on, thus the term \”Anti-Grappling\”.
Thanks–
As I mentioned, my goal was not to start a debate but rather find out what people felt the basics were…I have been in Krav for just over a year and do not have time to cross train.
I am relying on Krav’s program to teach me my ground and wanted some input based on what I have learned so far but also what I have seen.My opinion is stay off the ground at all costs, run when you can, and if you are on the ground, do what ever it takes to get back up.
I’d also add the standing and ground double overhook hold to my list.
Generally, I think its good to learn good control positions and holds on the ground, over submission holds. There are some good freestyle wrestling holds that are good for controlling someone- the double overhook, the full nelson, half nelson with hammerlock, double armlocks. All of these holds immobilize both arms, which is preferred, so the person won’t reach for anything. They also put you in a position away from the head and legs. Its also good to know an ankle lock and a knee lock, in case you find yourself in such a position. Because they bend in opposite directions, if one won’t work you can target the other.
Like many have alluded to, its good to learn position over submission.All of these \”control\” holds (for the ground) that are mentioned are not great for self protection. Why are you controlling them? What is your goal? What do you do next? Also, if their arms are tied up, so are yours. If their buddy (or some bystander) wants to jump in, it’s going to be difficult for you to extricate yourself quickly.
Now, to really stir things up. 😈 For self protection, the mount is overrated. 😯 It’s obviously better than being on the bottom, but it’s relatively easy for the guy on bottom to simply body lock you. If he’s not alone, he’ll just hold on until help comes. If he is, he’ll bite or simply wait for you to transition. To create real power in punches, you need grounding, torque, and distance–these are essentially negated if you are held in this position, making the efficacy of strikes negligible, at best. For self protection, I prefer knee to the belly. It requires slightly more training, but you are much more mobile, your vision (of surroundings) is better, and you can still generate powerful strikes without major concern of being grabbed.
Just a quick note. My instructor and I were talking about this very same thing. He brought up an interesting point, which basically renders ground fighting ineffective.
The point is this: Put me in an arm bar, submission hold etc…. what if I pull a knife (or some other object) out with my free hand and start stabbing you in the side? You have both of your hands (and attention) tied up elsewhere while I go to town, winning the fight.
Don’t forget that when you are in a fight you get sensory deprivation, which means you will get tunnel vision, etc.
The UFC is good for sport. Don’t misunderstand me here, they are awesome athletes, but it isn’t real world and it isn’t \”no holds barred\”.
But, by all means learn ground fighting… it is a very useful tool in your arsenal.
Groundfighting is hardly ineffective. It’s more in how you train it, just like anything else. What are your goals? Make sure your training emulates your goals.
Ryan-
Reread my post. I didn’t say ground fighting was ineffective. I said that if I had a knife in a ground fight and you are worried about getting me in an arm bar or ankle lock, it would give me an opportunity to stab or slash you.
Would you agree that this would be an ineffective use of your ground skills?
Granted, this is assuming I have a knife in my pocket or concealed when we go to the ground. I don’t think a smart person would allow one with a knife free reign on the ground, but that’s just my opinion.
You said that going for submissions while the opponent is going for a knife renders groundfighting ineffective. I disagree. Grapplers generally have great tactile sensitivity, so they would likely recognize an unnatural movement, such as freeing a hand to move it to the waistline (if they train that way.) That said, of course you don’t want to be on the ground in a self protection situation, but you don’t always get that choice. If you are clinched on the ground, simply striking is not always viable, due to reasons I listed earlier.
If you’re on the ground, do what you can to get up ASAP. In order to do that, you need a decent understanding of basic positions, transitions, and maybe even a few submissions (though I wouldn’t focus on much other than chokes.) If you’re on the ground, whether there are weapons or not, you better know some groundfighting.
RE: weapons and grappling.
Last time I visited Ryan’s school they had us do an interesting drill: we began in a clinch, and one person was given a folder (blunted, of course) and was allowed to hide it anywhere on their body. After this, the attacker, along with the ability to strike and attempt takedowns, was allowed to pull the knife at any point and begin stabbing, if they were given the chance.
Two lessons I learned from playing both the attacker and the defender: First, tactile sensitivity works toward the side of an experienced grappler when it comes to preventing someone from stabbing you. Secondly, unless you are well trained with a blade, it is difficult to unsheath a blade in a clinched grappling scenario.
Keep in mind, Jops, that grapplers don’t completely rely on submissions in a fight. A grappler with friends may only try to immobilize you (on the ground or against a wall) while the associates put the hurt on you.
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