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Hello all,
It’s been awhile since I have posted here but was wondering if someone could help me out. I am currently on another forum and debating the rationale of the Krav Maga gun defenses. They happened to see a video on Expert Village and had some concerns with the gun defenses.
The video is located here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE&feature=fvw
Some of the issues one had with the defenses in the video were:
1. The defender does not move offline. He just reaches for the gun. Notice how the defender stands right in front of the gun, the entire time he is reaching for the gun. He must reach up, grab the gun and push it past his body, all before the gun is fired.2. Once the gun is grabbed, the defender controls the gun at arms length, pushing it into the attackers waist, at the front of his body. This is putting the gun in the weakest place for the defender to control, arms length and the strongest place for the attacker, close to his body and in front at waist level. If the attacker, in the video, steps back with his right leg he will be able to point the gun at the defender and shoot. The attacker is in the strongest position to do this and the defender is at the weakest position to prevent this.
3. The defender relies on one hand to control the gun, while he punches the attacker multiple times. As previously discussed, the defender is in the weaker position to start with. So now he is going to rely on just one hand to hold it, while he punches the attacker? I would think that punching would encourage the attacker to back away, ripping the gun from the defenders grip. Again, the defender is in the weakest position to prevent this.
4. The actual strip of the gun, causes the gun to muzzle sweep the defender. (start at 2:10, in the video for a close up of the strip) The defender pulls down on the rear of the gun, causing the muzzle to rotate up. I understand that in the dojo, the muzzle sweeps just to the right of the defender. But we are talking about 1 or 2 degrees difference in angle between being shot and being just missed. With the real world never working out like it does in the dojo, this is too little margin for error.
I tried to explain to them the rational, but haven’t had much luck. Anyone care to share their thoughts or participate in the discussion?
It’s located over here: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?28375-Krav-Maga-Gun-Disarm&p=329001#post329001
Thanks.
Re: Gun Defense – Help
1. You are not racing a 1inch trigger pull. That’s insane and you will never even come close to winning that race. What you are racing is gunman’s realization that he needs to pull the trigger. The human eye/brain picks up on two things very well – lateral motion and changes in light. If you hand approaches the weapon from underneath, it helps hides the movement. If you attempt to dodge with your body, you are creating 1. a very large, easily detectable motion (huge cue to fire) and 2. you are moving a very heavy mass (your whole body) as opposed to moving a much lighter, faster hand (the old saying the hand is quicker than the eye) 3. to move your body out of the way requires a large motion that upsets your balance and your ability to burst forward, attack and control the gun.
2. a. the position of the arm applies weight to the weapon – that’s what controls it. You are unable to control the gun effectively with a bent arm because you cannot apply your weight – go down into a half pushup position and see how long you last as opposed to the top of a pushup. It also bends the attackers arm which takes away some of the strength of the attacker
b. most peoples natural reaction when you try to take something from that they want is to pull their hand back first, stepping will be secondary. Your weight is always driving forward. You should be driving the attacker backwards so you are moving faster forward than they are backward
c. the weight is applied to the end of the muzzle (the dangerous part) so with your weight driving forward, through the barrel, and their arm compromised for position, you should have superior leverage if even for the immediate moment3. Try to focus on a weapon retention while you are being hit with an unexpected punch to the face. The attacker is not ready for a fight. They have all the power in their hand and the last thing they expect is that. Ask any fighter, the punch you don’t see/expect is the one that knocks you out. If the defender touches the gun, that’s all the gunman is thinking of, now they get hit in the face and they have to start the OODA loop again – by that time you should be taking it away (from either a stunned attacker or an unconscious one)
4. Video would play properly, so I’m guessing it is not a good angle or explained poorly. The take away starts with a rotation of the gun about the bore axis, this applies a lot of pressure/pain to the finger and can even break it. Most often, the pain makes the attacker let go but breaks down their grip anyway. Then you are ripping the gun to your right hip with the barrel staying at 90 degrees to your body (staying out of the line of fire.)
Added – this grip cause a malfunction of the weapon – they only get one shot and then the have to clear it before you can fire another and no – it does not blow your off, and yes, I have done it with a live 45 and 9mm
I have done this with live airsoft type pistols (operate like a real glock) with paintballs under stress, exhausted, injured, with cooperative gunmen and those who wanted to fight and try and deliberately screw me. It works. I also have a file cabinet of letters form Law Enforcement Officers and Military who have tried these techniques (some of them admitting to very poor execution because of stress, errors, environment etc.) and have thanked us because it saved their lives or their partners lives.
I know our gun defenses work. In the end, you are not going to convince anybody over a forum. No video, no matter how thorough will replace training with an instructor. The proof is in the pudding. They really want to understand – they need to come over and train.
Re: Gun Defense – Help
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the response. Your right, no amount of discussion in forums will work. People will believe what they want. I made suggestions for them to either get with a certified Krav Maga instructor and try them out, if they can. If that isn’t available, practice on their own to try and see what is going on. As much as they were to criticize, no one has offered suggestions on what to do different or provided examples of their own training and experiences with gun defenses. Budo computer warriors are a dime a dozen. Thanks for your timely reply.
Eric
Re: Gun Defense – Help
Totally forgot to mention – there IS a body defense but the hand does 90-95%. Lastly to rely only on moving your body, you would need to move it the entire distance out of the way all the while the gunman can adjust his aim to compensate. If you move the barrel of the gun only few inches you move the line of fire completely off you and much faster than dodging (think trig and triangles an inch near the point translates into a much greater motion the farther you get to the base) plus they are unable to reacquire the target because your hand prevents this.
Hope this helps
Re: Gun Defense – Help
Totally forgot to mention – there IS a body defense but the hand does 90-95%. Lastly to rely only on moving your body, you would need to move it the entire distance out of the way all the while the gunman can adjust his aim to compensate. If you move the barrel of the gun only few inches you move the line of fire completely off you and much faster than dodging (think trig and triangles an inch near the point translates into a much greater motion the farther you get to the base) plus they are unable to reacquire the target because your hand prevents this.
Hope this helps
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