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Hello!
It’s finally time to have a user name and join the discussions. I’ve been sucking up all of this great information.
I’ve been in the martial arts for a couple of years now but they were only traditional and sport oriented styles. I’ve always had a desire to take Krav and finally I found a local school teaching it. Very very excited needless to say!
I’ve got a copy of the complete Krav Maga book by Whitman and Levine. I’ve read through the gun disarms and even spent a little bit of time in class trying these out. Not at that level yet but I had to try because of curiosity.
I enjoying reading information from various RBSD instructors. I came across some information from Jim Wagner. Now, I know there’s some information out there claiming he’s shady, but I wouldn’t know that for fact. In this article, it appears to me that one major variation he preaches is to disarm the gun using both hands. He says that it is a mistake to only control the gun with one arm. Any thoughts concerning this? I’m not an expert with Krav (not yet, haha) but it sounds like he’s never tried what you guys train with? I’m assuming that Krav teaches to do everything was fast and hard as possible so that you are only holding the gun with one hand for a split second.
There’s some other information I’ve never read before such as burning gas from the muzzle?
There’s some instructors and other experts of Krav (who even need it for their job I believe) around here whom I’d love to hear from on this.
Most appreciated!
Re: Gun disarm variations
The way my instructor puts it, is that you are getting inside the subject’s OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop. As you make the redirection of the weapon, and control with the one hand, the subject is thinking about getting his gun back into his control. Then, you hit him in the face, which shifts his attention to his broken nose and teeth floating around in his mouth. Just as he’s figuring out what is happening, you are continuing to beat the fight out of him, while still controlling the weapon. Once he’s no longer a threat, the gun will either fall from his hand, or you won’t get much resistance when you take it.
In most of our defenses, the control pins the gun hand/arm to your or their body, assisting your one hand. In the cases where that isn’t possible, two hands are used, and counter attacks are made with kicks and knees. At least this has been my experience.
As far as injuries sustained from grabbing the slide of a handgun, they are minimal.
Re: Gun disarm variations
quote TheDarkKnight:There’s some other information I’ve never read before such as burning gas from the muzzle?Hi DK, I’m not a Krav “expert” by any means or an Instructor but I have had some training in the gun disarms and I’m rather well versed in the operation of firearms.
MDUSGC is right. If you grab the slide of a semi-auto handgun and keep a good grip the worst case is that the gun could discharge (not a problem if you have it redirected) and then promptly jam rendering it inoperable until it is cleared. Unless you make the mistake of putting your hand in front of the muzzle; it’s all good.
A revolver though is a different story. While a semi-auto fires from a closed breech the revolver has it’s load in the cylinder of the gun. When the bullet is fired it makes a “jump” from the front of the cylinder into the barrel at a part known as the forcing cone. There is a tiny gap at this point which will vent hot gasses with enough pressure and heat to do some real damage to your hand if you are gripping it at this point.Not too many people use revolvers any more though it seems (just old guys like me) ;):
Just something to consider.
Re: Gun disarm variations
During my 8 years in the Corps I spent 7.5 of them as a combat marksmanship coach. On one trip to the pistol range I was coaching and it was more of a “made-up” course of fire and at this stage we’re dealing with 180 degree rotations. A buddy asked me to watch his two shooters while he made a head call. Shooters were condition 1 (magazine inserted, round in chamber) and faced up range, holstered, while range personnel went down and repaired a target. One of the guys down range called the command “TARGETS” to have the range house face the targets to the shooters to test if the repair took or if they needed further work. Upon hearing that command one of the two shooters I was watching turned, unholstered and presented; I grabbed the barrel with my right hand and pushed down, and a split second later he pulled the trigger. I gripped the slide pretty tight, so when it went off the pistol extracted the round, but didn’t eject it, causing a stovepipe malfunction. Didn’t hurt me at all, just made me very excitable and aggravated. On the flip side, not that I’ve seen too many crimes committed with this type of weapon, there are pistols out there with ports cut into the slide/barrel that vent the same gas and pressure talked about in the post above mine. Some Glocks come from the factory like this (any model with a “C” after it) and Springfield Armory produced the XD40 V10 variant, and I believe there was an XD9 V10 as well.
Re: Gun disarm variations
quote TacticalTimmy:During my 8 years in the Corps I spent 7.5 of them as a combat marksmanship coach. On one trip to the pistol range I was coaching and it was more of a “made-up” course of fire and at this stage we’re dealing with 180 degree rotations. A buddy asked me to watch his two shooters while he made a head call. Shooters were condition 1 (magazine inserted, round in chamber) and faced up range, holstered, while range personnel went down and repaired a target. One of the guys down range called the command “TARGETS” to have the range house face the targets to the shooters to test if the repair took or if they needed further work. Upon hearing that command one of the two shooters I was watching turned, unholstered and presented; I grabbed the barrel with my right hand and pushed down, and a split second later he pulled the trigger. I gripped the slide pretty tight, so when it went off the pistol extracted the round, but didn’t eject it, causing a stovepipe malfunction. Didn’t hurt me at all, just made me very excitable and aggravated. On the flip side, not that I’ve seen too many crimes committed with this type of weapon, there are pistols out there with ports cut into the slide/barrel that vent the same gas and pressure talked about in the post above mine. Some Glocks come from the factory like this (any model with a “C” after it) and Springfield Armory produced the XD40 V10 variant, and I believe there was an XD9 V10 as well.Oh yeah….Barrel porting could cause a problem too.
Re: Gun disarm variations
quote TacticalTimmy:Didn’t hurt me at all, just made me very excitable and aggravated.rofl2Somehow, I don’t think those would be the same words that Marine would use to describe it.
Re: Gun disarm variations
Well I can’t repeat what was said on the forum, I’ve like to be a member for longer than a few months 😉
Re: Gun disarm variations
Thanks for the replies.
I originally thought that the website was referring to the end of the gun which is why I was confused. Sorry for asking something that has probably been covered many times before.
I’m not very familiar with guns, but hopefully that will change over the course of the next few years.
Re: Gun disarm variations
I’m surprised nobody mentioned yet….. compared to your life, a burnt hand doesn’t seem like much.
It is a worst case scenario – (your grip after your redirection may stop the slide from moving at all) but I’d rather go home alive with a burnt hand than to the morgue in a body bag.
Re: Gun disarm variations
So is there any gun disarms for revolver type handguns? Especially smaller caliber ones like .22 snub nose? My first time at the gun range I remember the guy saying to be extremely cautious on how to hold a revolver as it has that port that TomO was talking about where you can hurt yourself pretty badly if you’re blocking it although I’m not sure if snub noses even have said ports….
Re: Gun disarm variations
I think it’s actually pretty simple if you can grasp this one concept, doesn’t matter dessert eagle or derringer, redirect the line of fire, control the weapon. As long as you keep that PRINCIPLE in mind I don’t care how it’s presented, the size or the caliber. If I can touch it you’re screwed.
Re: Gun disarm variations
quote CJs Dad:I think it’s actually pretty simple if you can grasp this one concept, doesn’t matter dessert eagle or derringer, redirect the line of fire, control the weapon. As long as you keep that PRINCIPLE in mind I don’t care how it’s presented, the size or the caliber. If I can touch it you’re screwed.Yuppers, my thoughts exactly.:D:
Re: Gun disarm variations
Great, good to know… I actually got the front gun disarm technique (to the chest and head) down pretty easily!
Re: Gun disarm variations
Sorry to necropost, but this seemed to be opened up again recently and is a good topic…
quote CJs Dad:I think it’s actually pretty simple if you can grasp this one concept, doesn’t matter dessert eagle or derringer, redirect the line of fire, control the weapon. As long as you keep that PRINCIPLE in mind I don’t care how it’s presented, the size or the caliber. If I can touch it you’re screwed.I think this is the concept to go with. As far as handguns (pistol, revolver, derringer, etc.) go, master a safe technique that fits your body and adheres to RCAT, and apply it regardless of the size or operating mechanism of a the handgun. Make it simple, don’t worry about jamming the hammer or cylinders or anything weapon-specific. Make sure you become in dominant control of the handgun (two hands, bodyweight, positioning, whatever…) as quickly as possible, and never re-enter the line of fire. Base the disarm on gross body motions, and don’t try to do too much damage before concentrating on gaining control of the firearm.
In other words, don’t do ANYTHING this genius does (yes, some concepts are retained, but this guy is a freaking circus):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjtoTZ1E88M&feature=related
My students always ask me why we strike with the tip of the barrel (“pistol punching,” which seems weak and “unnatural”) as opposed to “pistol whipping” the aggressor with the butt of the weapon, using weight and leverage to swing it down.
On this forum (which I’ve followed for a while) and videos etc. I’ve always seen two answers given:
1) It’s better for preventing malfunctions: while striking with the tip may temporarily force the weapon out of battery, it is less likely to make it inoperable than screwing up the magazine by whacking the butt. (generally true)
2) Pistol punches hurt plenty. Try it. (absolutely true)
The one that seems most critical to me, and that I never see mentioned is this:
3) When you pistol punch, you keep your attacker in the line of fire during a jarring impact which may cause a weapon without a firing pin safety or with loose tolerances (I’m envisioning a saturday night special here…) to discharge accidentally. When you “pistol whip,” you “whip” yourself (or bystanders, depending on orientation) into the line of fire! If you hold a weapon by the barrel and whip the butt into an opponent’s head, the barrel in your hand will be pointing directly at you. Try it.
Best,
-Eli
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