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Greetings All,
I have been studying up on the various martial arts that are available and came across one called “Hapkido”. It seems to be very comprehensive in the skill set that is taught within it as it seems to have the capacity to deal with different fighting scenarios not unlike Krav.
What I found interesting is that some of the trainers of it have on their CV’s that they have done police training with it here in Australia. I am well aware that is something that you also find with Krav and its my opinion that the Police generally don’t waste their time with stuff that does not work largely because they are on the front line and if they get it wrong they are in real trouble. In my mind this lends weight to the idea that Hapkido might be worth looking into closer.
Very interested to hear from anyone who has studied it or looked into it and what your thoughts are of it?
Re: Hapkido
Just because it is taught to police officers does not give it any validty. In fact..most of the stuff that is taught to police officers in the united states is crap.Inefficient techniques that only serve to be legally defensible in a court of law.Departments would rather have their officers injured or killed over being sued and losing.
Re: Hapkido
Hapkido like krav depends on the instruction. I’ve trained in it where it was more art than fight and more as a path for improvement and I trained in a very unwatered down version that was total fight and a full out mma type art before that craze….complete with ground fight…in the end its not “WHAT” you train in but how you train in it
Krav was a military system and as such is not the invention of one man. Israel is a NATO country and they brought in the best trainers they could find…many of the hapkido masters went there in the day…another thing most don’t realize is Ninpo was big in Israel back in the day as is judo…I remember some really badazz ninja Israeli guys…pretty hardcore…anyway hapkido can be a really great sd system but mostly isn’t trained that way in the States…though there is a guy in thousand Oaks and one in toronto(old movie guy)…and my buddy Dan one of their 5th degrees who doesn’t teach much because he never watered it down
Re: Hapkido
no offense….but your idea of the development of krav maga is wrong. Except for the Bujinkan thing but that was mainly a civilian thing and wasnt until the 70s. It was introduced to Israel by Doron Navon.
The only stuff that came in to the system from outside of Imi and his students experience was the stick stuff that came from the original KAPAP techniques used by the Haganah.Re: Hapkido
quote KevinMack:no offense….but your idea of the development of krav maga is wrong. Except for the Bujinkan thing but that was mainly a civilian thing and wasnt until the 70s. It was introduced to Israel by Doron Navon.
The only stuff that came in to the system from outside of Imi and his students experience was the stick stuff that came from the original KAPAP techniques used by the Haganah.well if you need to believe that Imi and his students never looked at outside systems and created it in a vaccum I understand
Re: Hapkido
Its a little of both though.They did look at other systems but they were also in a vaccum. You cant compare Israel in the 40s,50s and 60s with America at that time or even now. They were somewhat isolated and media wasnt what it is today. When my instructor trained with Imi and his instructors in 1981 they had no training equipment. Their heavy bag was tires around a pole and they used real knives instead of rubber ones. Every trip back he would bring pads and gear with him. There werent tons of martial arts magazines and videos in Israel during the time in which the system was created. Even in the United States we had access to certain things at different times. Judo was first and then karate in the 60s followed by Kung Fu in the late 60s and early 70s.The Korean arts became prominent in the 70s and 80s. Ninjutsu and JKD in the 80s. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and then MMA in the 90s and 2000s. Muay Thai also started to spread in the late 80s but really spread in the 90s and 2000s as well.
Now in regards to Krav Maga and Israel they made due with what they had. Imi was a boxer and wrestler so boxing was the base along with the jiu jitsu locks and holds his police chief father taught him. His first two black belts..Eli Avikzar and Raffi Elgrissi were black belts in Judo and later Aikido. So those two arts became prominent in the system.But when Imi was developing the system the only martial art you really saw in Israel was judo followed by karate till the 70s. Eli Avikzar had to travel to Europe to further his Aikido training and came back to teach what he knew. They then took some of the strikes from karate and added that to the system. That is basically what you have in Krav Maga. Imi’s base skills and unique techniques and strategies along with some Judo and Aikido and a tad bit of karate. They also used the same basic stick fighting methods that were used by the Haganah in their KAPAP method.That is what they had access to and thats where Krav Maga came from. There was no bringing in experts from other countries…you just had a small gym in Netanya where Imi and his top students built a system with the skillsets that were around them at the time.
In the 70s Doron Navon brought Nujinkan Ninjutsu to Israel. he was originally a Judo guy but he then became the first foreigner to become an instuctor in Hatsumis Bujinkan. He was also a student of Moshe Feldenkrais and became a teacher of his method. He now lives in Japan working as a Feldenkrais practioner. Some of his students founded a school in Israel called AKBAN which is pretty cool.By the late 70s and 80s you started to see more and more martial arts entering Israel but by then the system was pretty much codified and has only changed in minor ways since then. Mainly in the realm of training methodologies,some technique variations,the incorporation of the muay thai style round kick and the addition of BJJ in some KM organizations syllabus.There is no wing chun,hapkido,JKD,kung fu,tai chi,sumo,TKD or ninjutsu in the system. There is boxing,wrestling,judo,aikido,karate and get this…dancing.
You cant project modern or American sensibilities on the history of the system. You have to know what Israel was like at the time and what those involved were doing.
This is of course the Krav Maga of the 50s,60s,70s,80s and 90s. Now that there are more KM organizations you will see instructors adding in new things in order to sell their systems as being different from the others so you might see stuff from other arts in their work but this is a rather recent trend.
Honestly…I would say boxing and Judo/Ju Jitsu are the main components of Krav Maga. Then aikido and karate.Re: Hapkido
I guess one of the things that stands out about Hapkido is that like Krav its a very broad grouping of attack and defence mechanisms. Be it standing up, on the ground, grappling Hapkido has training that its students can draw from to handle various situations. Areas of interest seem to be in joint locks and submission holds also.
The other interesting thing is that also like Krav it contains instructions in the use of weapons and how one might utilise an object as a weapon if needed. Yet once one reaches a Black Belt in Hapkido they are then entitled to learn the weaponry which includes Staff, Nunchucks and the Sword. Not a bad suite of weapons to learn and the offensive and defensive skill sets that come with it.
Re: Hapkido
The thing I find funny is that whenever someone from another art looks at KM they say “oh..it looks like what we do”. But when you think about it..all martial arts are the same. In the same way that reggae,rock,heavy metal,punk and country bands are all basically the same in that they mainly all have a drummer,bass guitar,regular guitar,singer and sometimes a keyboardist. They all use the same notes and chords. Yet they are all totally different.
I am not annoyed or angry when people say this…I just think its funny cause it happens so often. Just look at the comments to any KM youtube video.Re: Hapkido
quote KevinMack:Its a little of both though.They did look at other systems but they were also in a vaccum. You cant compare Israel in the 40s,50s and 60s with America at that time or even now. They were somewhat isolated and media wasnt what it is today. When my instructor trained with Imi and his instructors in 1981 they had no training equipment. Their heavy bag was tires around a pole and they used real knives instead of rubber ones. Every trip back he would bring pads and gear with him. There werent tons of martial arts magazines and videos in Israel during the time in which the system was created. Even in the United States we had access to certain things at different times. Judo was first and then karate in the 60s followed by Kung Fu in the late 60s and early 70s.The Korean arts became prominent in the 70s and 80s. Ninjutsu and JKD in the 80s. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and then MMA in the 90s and 2000s. Muay Thai also started to spread in the late 80s but really spread in the 90s and 2000s as well.
Now in regards to Krav Maga and Israel they made due with what they had. Imi was a boxer and wrestler so boxing was the base along with the jiu jitsu locks and holds his police chief father taught him. His first two black belts..Eli Avikzar and Raffi Elgrissi were black belts in Judo and later Aikido. So those two arts became prominent in the system.But when Imi was developing the system the only martial art you really saw in Israel was judo followed by karate till the 70s. Eli Avikzar had to travel to Europe to further his Aikido training and came back to teach what he knew. They then took some of the strikes from karate and added that to the system. That is basically what you have in Krav Maga. Imi’s base skills and unique techniques and strategies along with some Judo and Aikido and a tad bit of karate. They also used the same basic stick fighting methods that were used by the Haganah in their KAPAP method.That is what they had access to and thats where Krav Maga came from. There was no bringing in experts from other countries…you just had a small gym in Netanya where Imi and his top students built a system with the skillsets that were around them at the time.
In the 70s Doron Navon brought Nujinkan Ninjutsu to Israel. he was originally a Judo guy but he then became the first foreigner to become an instuctor in Hatsumis Bujinkan. He was also a student of Moshe Feldenkrais and became a teacher of his method. He now lives in Japan working as a Feldenkrais practioner. Some of his students founded a school in Israel called AKBAN which is pretty cool.By the late 70s and 80s you started to see more and more martial arts entering Israel but by then the system was pretty much codified and has only changed in minor ways since then. Mainly in the realm of training methodologies,some technique variations,the incorporation of the muay thai style round kick and the addition of BJJ in some KM organizations syllabus.There is no wing chun,hapkido,JKD,kung fu,tai chi,sumo,TKD or ninjutsu in the system. There is boxing,wrestling,judo,aikido,karate and get this…dancing.
You cant project modern or American sensibilities on the history of the system. You have to know what Israel was like at the time and what those involved were doing.
This is of course the Krav Maga of the 50s,60s,70s,80s and 90s. Now that there are more KM organizations you will see instructors adding in new things in order to sell their systems as being different from the others so you might see stuff from other arts in their work but this is a rather recent trend.
Honestly…I would say boxing and Judo/Ju Jitsu are the main components of Krav Maga. Then aikido and karate.Kevin, HAPKIDO is Juijitsu/Judo/ Aikido cept the Koreans hated their Japanese oppressors and claim they invented it in a vaccumm of their military traditions….and before I ever heard of krav I heard of judo instructors training IDF military and israeli Ninpo anf Japanese Jits guys as well as korean GM’s….knew a ROK Col in the day…BUT it doesn’t matter if any of that is true…. the real question is if you were in charge of developing the H2H system for a country at constant war wouldn’t you seek expert counsel then use your mentalities to tweak it?? They may have had 1 training bag but they would’ve brought in secretly whoever they could…I believe they did…you believe they didn’t…in the end who gives a crap…stories are built to sell something…Result is all that matters,,and that is all i’m sayng
Israelis like most militaries are pragmatic they’ll steal whatever works from whereever they can get it including taking a hard look at the systems of their enemies the so called muslim arts like silat..later on people on forums debate its roots and deny any similarities and connections to other systems….the more one see’s of the martial arts the more similar they are…but of course in the end we have to sell it
good luck with your training and teaching
Re: Hapkido
Interested in your thoughts on this demonstration, especially at 1:20!
Re: Hapkido
[QUOTE=Seraphs Coal;57933]Interested in your thoughts on this demonstration, especially at 1:20!
When I trained and competed in ATA Taekwondo I saw many demonstrations like this, especially at tournaments. Doesn’t mean they would be effective on the street.
Re: Hapkido
quote Seraphs Coal:Interested in your thoughts on this demonstration, especially at 1:20!I’m assuming your asking Kevin BUT…this is hapkido as the art and mostly what i saw in LA…if you search on youtube for gongkwon hapkido it will look like mma only most vids only show body punching for sparring and was more like the version I trained from My friend Dan who is a 5th degree in the World Hapkido association only Dan was more street as well as the ROK Marine Col who got me interested in this crap in the 70’s…..and also years ago from the old hwarangdo(hapikdo repackaged like kook sul won) guys…stay away from current hwarangdo…complicated and cult like….but the old hwarangdo guys were reality based before the term became popular
I would recommend krav over hapkido in most cases because krav is taught as a Reality Based System where civilan hapkido is mostly taught as a martial art.my guess is military may have a different focus..in the end its not so much what you train in but how you train in it or even the focus of yourcoach
one last thought the ground grappling was no where near as sophisticated as bjj
hope this helps
hope this helps
Re: Hapkido
[quote=BradM;57934]
quote Seraphs Coal:Interested in your thoughts on this demonstration, especially at 1:20!When I trained and competed in ATA Taekwondo I saw many demonstrations like this, especially at tournaments. Doesn’t mean they would be effective on the street.
Hey Brad…long timethumbsup
Re: Hapkido
Its not a very good gun defense according to krav maga standards. The line of fire is all over the place. Plus the circular movement allows for telegraphic movement. Like i said..according to our standards.
quote Seraphs Coal:Interested in your thoughts on this demonstration, especially at 1:20!Re: Hapkido
quote KevinMack:Its not a very good gun defense according to krav maga standards. The line of fire is all over the place. Plus the circular movement allows for telegraphic movement. Like i said..according to our standards.Hey Kevin,
I think the gun from behind part of your ‘out of control, in control’ video also applies. She’s not taking herself out of the line of fire as she rotates. She turns a full 180 and she’s still staring straight down the barrel.
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