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Hi everyone.
I have to admit that I do see some things in the video clips that could be improved. Many of them have already been discussed here.
But I want to say: I’ve met Thierry and I think he’s a good guy. I’ve seen him train and I think he is good and aggressive. I don’t know anything about their federation in Europe — it is getting very complicated in Europe because things are becoming fragmented (a situation we’ve tried to avoid in the U.S.). But I must say that I like Thierry and, from what I’ve seen, I respect how he trains.
Hey, I just got an e-mail from Thierry Viatour. Apparently, he reads our forum! 🙁 😳 😆
No, no, he was very nice, had nothing but kind things to say about our organisation and told me he wanted to send me the notebook and DVD, so I could look at the whole thing. He also said our DVDs and videos may convey the US version of Krav Maga better than their DVDs.
Anyway, if he does send the notebook and DVD that would be interesting, it’s never easy to judge from just a few excerpts, so let’s see what the whole thing looks like…
Hello dear all,
I’m writing some quick comment on this thread based on the fact that I have been training for 6 years among the ABKM (\”Association Belge de Krav Maga\”) which is a part of the WKMF. I have also attended and succeeded their instructor course but I must also precise that I did so for my own pleasure and enlightenment as I have never run a club or earn money through teaching. Furthermore, I’m not legally or officially tied to the WKMF and I train with many organization and instructors to better my knowledge. As such I think I can give a fair overview of the federation work.
First as Mr Whitman said, our head instructor Thierry Viatour is a really good instructor and try to maintain a healthy relationship with the American Krav Maga Association. He’s constantly trying to promote Krav Maga in Europe in a positive manner and without trying to bad-mouth any other organization. For example he always told me that a visit to the Krav Maga Center in L.A. was a great experience, one that should be done by any KM practitioner instead of only trying to sell his own seminar.
As far as the notebook and the DVD are concerned, who would be foolish enough to pretend that you can really learn a system on tape or in a book? If this was the case, their would be not a single studio still open anywhere around a world full of couch potato warriors…
As far as the notebook is concerned, here’s what you can get for free on the website:
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p48headlocklargeen.jpg
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p162gunlargeen.jpg
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p57shoulderlargeen.jpg
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p69slashlargeen.jpg
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p101riflelargeen.jpg
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/Pictures/p112strikeslargeen.jpg
I don’t really see what so awkward about those techniques…
Concerning the DVD, it’s composed of 2 different parts. One that present the techniques from the yellow level till the brown level at different speeds and in a gym. The point here is not to teach them but to give an overview to the student of what he can expect to learn if he attends a course. Then there’s the \”live\” part which is techniques done in simulated situations by real students with a minimum of rehearsal. One can argue about point of details and any video can be stopped to find some flaws but the only thing I can tell you is that all techniques were done more or less full speed and with energy and worked which is a testimony to the efficiency of Krav Maga… The goal was to show here that by having a quick reaction (one that you can only get when you have been training for some time), you can always get yourself out of trouble and escape. Of course, there could have been more rehearsal and staging but the goal was more to be spontaneous.Walker make a nice remark… Not everybody looks and performs the same. As long as the principles are sound and safe, we cannot argue for inches. For example, in the clip where the guy block the overhead stab. He start to block at the wrist and then goes to control the arm at the crook of the elbow. What is also important is pressure… Do you really think that that guy getting hammered and dropped to the ground would really try to counterattack as long as he’s off-balanced? This could goes on and on and we are surely not against criticism when it’s motivated and we are open to debate.
For Kmman,
It’s written nowhere that we make instructor in 4 days… You can attend a certification course spread over 4 weekends (2 days session). At the end of that course, you have to pass an exam and if you succeed you are a first level instructor (this meaning that you can teach all self defense techniques). I was part of the first session and nearly two third of the attendants failed or didn’t pass their exam. The reason why? A lot of people came in thinking they were buying their diploma… The reality is if you don’t know Krav Maga or at the minimum have a good base in another fighting system and are motivated, your chances to get
Rod,
In IKMF you need to go through a 23-24 days session minimum. And than exam. I do not want to compare, just mention. Minimun P4-P5 level needed, or relevant MA background of minimun 4-5 years or more.
Rod, a couple of questions on the overhead stab defence. Is the initial block meant to be at the wrist? (I don’t mean to be difficult but the initial block on the video isn’t at the wrist, it’s at the elbow.) Second, why do you chose to control the arm by scooping the arm and having the knife across the shoulder/back area? How does this defence work if the attacker pulls back quickly to do multiple stabs – can you get to the elbow control position before the 2nd stab gets in? Finally,do you always throw the attacker to get out of this position or do you have other ways of disengaging as well?
Cheers
Rob 😀Hello,
I’m sorry I’m not used to posting here and I didn’t had the time to re-read my post… I see now that the end of it just disappeared (guess I was a little long 😉 …).
I do not remember exactly what I wrote but I was describing in a more detailed way the instructor course. You can find most of those information on those links (sorry I do not mean to advertise, just to clarify):
http://www.kravmagaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50
http://www.kravmagaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49Kmman, you will then be able to see that the instructor certificate is not given or sold like in any serious organization.
For Rob, like I mention in my previous post, there’s many ways to skin a cat… This my opinion and only my opinion so do not consider it the official answer of the WKMF. For something official, you should contact Thierry Viatour by mail (and you should not hesitate Thierry is someone very friendly, passionate and open to discussion). Personally, I more attached to principles than fixed techniques. I guess the guy (which I know by the way and who’s a great instructor) blocked were he blocked (and he’s still somewhere along the forearm not directly at the elbow) because he’s much smaller then the other guy and he would have had to overextend to block at the wrist which could have unbalanced him. What’s important here is to block and counter simultaneously to facilitate your entry and the control of the arm. Why does he control the arm that way? Once more I guess it’s because of his size… Personally, when I scoop the arm, I place my palm on the elbow but I’m much bigger. Sometimes, I will just control the wrist and push the arm backward behind the body and knee the body. It all depends of the aggressor reaction. Likewise if he tries to yank his arm to free it or the fact of throwing him on the ground, this will all depends of what he offers you through his reaction. If you get attacked, you counter and strike and your adversary fall to the ground, you don’t need anything further but to run away if your a civilian… That’s why a video clip like this is just one moment in time… You could put me in this situation 10 times and apart for the beginning (simultaneous counter and strike), the following could be different the 10 times based on the aggressor’s reaction, if he’s alone, the surrounding and so on… We are not robot fighting robot. But that’s not to say that I’m not interested in discussing techniques and details, that’s also a good way to better my capacities.
In the end of my previous mail, I was also saying that I was looking forward to have Giantkiller feedback on the whole product once he have received it.
Best regards,
Rod
So Rod, if the videos aren’t really meant to show the correct technique then what are they for? Just to get people interested in attending class?
Personally, I think the reason why people spend money to buy martial arts DVDs, videos or books of any kind is to use them to correctly learn the technique specific to that system. Some people might already have some knowledge and just want some reference to improve their existing technique, others may be completely new to the system and want to know what the techniques of that system are really like. They don’t have to be couch potatos, there simply may not be a school in their area and so they choose to get the videos and maybe train on their own. But I think they all want to learn. So if you show them sloppy technique, they’ll learn sloppy technique and in a real situation, where the attacker is actually fighting back and is not just your friendly classmate who lets you do whatever you want, sloppy technique can get you in real trouble, it could even cost you your life.
I also don’t agree that the technique naturally looks different depending on whoever does it. There may be minor differences here and there, one person might prefer one counter attck to another, but essentially, if done in a controlled environment, the exercise should pretty much always look the same. Of course stress can make it harder and you may not be as precise sometimes, but on the video it’s staged anyway, so it only looks like stress, but it’s still a controlled environment (the defender knows what’s coming) and thus he should not have to make fundamental errors in technique. And if he does make a mistake, he could simply start over and do another take.
To deliberately (or carelessly) show incorrect technique is a bit irresponsible in my opinion, because it could potentially endanger the student’s life, if he is learning the wrong technique and then tries to use it against a real attacker. If you learn the perfect technique you might mess up a bit in a real situation, but it might still be good enough to safe your life. If you learn the wrong thing to begin with, and then mess up even more in a real situation, that could end up costing you your life.
Anyway, Thierry said he would send the DVD’s and the notebook and I’m looking forward to receiving them to get a better impression of what they are really like. Maybe there are some parts where the techniques are explained in more detail.
Sorry Rod, didn’t see your second post until now.
The guy, who did the knife defense was an instructor? Hmmm…
I actually have the same (or worse !) problem, I’m kind of short, so often my attacker will be a lot taller. It is hard to do this specific defense against a taller person, because there is that tendency to reach up to get to the knife. However, going to the elbow instead and then grabbing the arm the way he did wouldn’t really be the best solution I think. You could still defend at the wrist (eventually his arm will come down), also, if you are early, you could burst in, have your arm up as a shield and simply send the punch, even if you haven’t yet made contact with the knife. Then, as the knife drops, go wrist to wrist, push the arm down and make the regular technique. We actually have some shorter instructors and they all seem to be able to make the defense going wrist to wrist.
Of course counters can vary after a certain point, but the initial defense and counter should usually be the same. Otherwise we could just say: Be aggressive, defend however possible, hit him anyway you can, then run. That might even work sometimes, but it wouldn’t be much of a system.
Giantkiller,
like I told you, the DVD is designed as a display of what we do, not as a tutorial. That’s why everything fits on a single DVD. It’s really not intended to make you learn the techniques. As such, the American series could be considered more detailed but it’s spread on 5 DVDs. Anyway, I wouldn’t want to be responsible to teach people via videos or books, it’s already so hard to teach them up-front.
However, the notebook is more precise and a more useful tool for learning even if for me like a video, it’s still not perfect.
Let’s talk about it again when you will have seen the material. On our forum maybe as I’ve seen you registered… 😉Best regards,
Rod
Re:
quote \”Giantkiller\:Okay, can’t wait to receive it!! 😀GiantKiller, u train at the KMNTC ? if so maybe I can have a look at the notebook once you get it if you dont mind. Thanks
All:
I received the notebook this week and it looked great to me. There are some techniques in there that I would do differently just as there are in \”How to defend yourself against armed attacks\”.
I’ve just received the DVD, but not yet the notebook, so I will wait for that and then tell you what I think about both of them. 8)
Okay, I’ve just received the notebook! First of all I have to say I thought it was very nice of them to send both the DVD and notebook to me despite (or even because of) the fact that I criticized some of their techniques on the forum. Most other people might have been hurt or offended, but they sent me free stuff, so that says a lot about them right there! 😀
Okay, so here is what I thought. I received the DVD several days before the notebook and so I looked at it first. On the positive side, the instructors all look very aggressive. Their combatives, punches, kicks, fall breaks, rolls etc are all very strong and fast. Looks like they may have been doing martial arts for quite a long time.
But then, when it comes to the Krav Maga techniques themselves, many appear flawed. This is especially apparent in the video.
Some examples: In the video, during choke defenses, they almost never do the pluck properly. They just kind of grab the attacker’s hand by the wrist (below the hand), then hold on to it and give counter attacks until the attacker lets go. They never seem to do a proper plucking motion (pulling the thumb off the neck as they strike). This is especially apparent, in the video, during choke from the side. Also choke from behind and on the ground. In the notebook however, the pictures show the proper pluck and it is even mentioned to \”release the thumb area\”, although the pluck and reasons for doing it are never explained in detail.
One more problem with chokes: Choke with a push from behind. The attacker resists the push by trying to push his upper body back, his legs are out in front, then he starts to turn, his arm kind of comes up as he is turning (not before he turns). Choke with a push from the front: He doesn’t resist as much, but you are told to raise your arm as you are turning and it looks a bit more like a wild overhead punch as he is defending (in the video). In the notebook it looks a lot better, although you can also see the guy resisting as he is pushed from behind.
Another big problem I saw was the 360 defense. In both the notebook and video the defense is explained as to \”block with your forearm\”, not with the wrist. In the notebook picture you can see the defender blocking with the middle of his forearm against the middle of the attacker’s forearm, not wrist to wrist. In addition, in the video, in both the over and underhand stab, the defender is reaching for the weapon, his arm is almost straight as he makes contact with the knife, then his arm is pushed back to a 90 degree angle by the force of the attack. In overhead knife the defender also steps back with his left leg as the attack is coming in (instead of forward), the also seems to step back with his right leg. Underhand stab, his legs are bent and his upper body doesn’t bend down very far at all, instead he is reaching for the knife to get to it.
In rifle defenses, the takeaways look very weak. From behind and front to live side they consisted mostly of pulling the rifle out of the attacker’s hand. For rifle to the dead side there is supposed to be a lock (it’s not really explained in detail), but the defender seems to almost turn his back to the attacker and the rifle is still in front.
Gun defenses: In the video, they never push the gun into the attacker’s body, it just kind of stays out there in front of him. The defender’s weight seems to be very much to the side (and even back a little) and he makes a big body defense. It’s hard to tell whether there is a proper takeaway or not, they might just puil the gun out of the attacker’s hand (It’s not really explained and hard to see). In the notebook however, the gun is pushed into the attacker, although the defender is still very much sideways and the barrel of the gun is pointed toward the ground (almost close to the defender’s feet it looks like).
One big difference there is in gun defenses is that they put their hands up first, then go for the redirection. This might be easier for the attacker to see then redirecting the way we
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