If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Here’s another untrained disarm attempt with tragic results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZy8tTznLDA

The guy in the Thai video http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/12…is_Own_Hostage
surely must have had some kind of MA or other training, just look at how cool he remains,
the way he ‘locks’ the BG’s arm with overhand & underhand grabs and the incredible timing / speed…
What an amazing reaction !

I agree with psyops’ take on it.. KM in spirit all the way..

[tech94]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

psyops statement makes perfect sense to me. just because it isnt a prescribed technique doesnt make it NOT KM. just as in JKD, KM is principal based and the technique he used did use prinicpals of KM. i have never been confronted with a gun, hopefully never will. i dont think i would personally attempt a gun disarm, unless i knew i or my loved ones were going to be killed either way. in that case there’s nothing to lose so you try. i doubt i have anything besides my daughter worth dying over. material goods can be replaced..ariana’s daddy (thats me) cannot be

[drgreensticky]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

quote Chocolate Soldier:

Here’s another untrained disarm attempt with tragic results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZy8tTznLDA

The guy in the Thai video http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/12…is_Own_Hostage
surely must have had some kind of MA or other training, just look at how cool he remains,
the way he ‘locks’ the BG’s arm with overhand & underhand grabs and the incredible timing / speed…
What an amazing reaction !

I agree with psyops’ take on it.. KM in spirit all the way..

Wow… it’s bizarre to me that four guys could not get a gun away from ONE individual for such a long time. Definitely untrained… that guy would have been beaten senseless in that length of time if he’d been dealing with people trained in Krav. Just goes to show that if you don’t know what you’re doing – and unless there’s NO OTHER CHOICE – don’t risk your life.

[kvmorl]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

I agree they’re definitely untrained but even trained in KM would have been a bit complex to do a defense no?

If you deflect gun towards your right there was a possibility friends would have gotten shot as well before grabbing and twisting/taking gun. I have never had gun defenses shown so i’m not sure if there is a another gun defense that would have been better in this situation.

Is there an upward grab of the arm with gun defense ?

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Twist gun upwards if you have to, be decisive – you have a very small window of opportunity before the BG rallies, use leverage, put your body weight into it, improvise if need be, try and deliver the ‘punch of your life’, know that the BG will be fighting for their life too once things kick off, don’t give up, win..

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

quote kvmorl:

I agree they’re definitely untrained but even trained in KM would have been a bit complex to do a defense no?

The problem was the gun & they failed to get control of it – things start off when one guy slaps the gun to the side and they begin attacking the BG but leaving the gun free..

The KM idea would be in rapid succession: redirect line of fire, control, counter, disarm, create distance..

The BG came up really close – actually a perfect distance for a disarm attempt..

It probably would have been a lot better for those guys to have just given the BG the cash.

The chances are he would have just left the scene with no one getting hurt – though you never can tell what crazy stunts people will pull (!).

There’s enough youtube vids of people getting shot for no apparent reason at all in robberies.

I think a typical BG in an armed robbery scenario would be totally unprepared for and caught off guard by a KM disarm technique.

But you really have a split second to win decisively IMO before the BG starts their own counterattack..

Highly dangerous stuff though which could lead to a much worse outcome than losing your wallet.

Judgement call!

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Here’s a Washington Post article about the lobby shooting, ‘motives’ & trial:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/16/AR2005111600007.html

Surely this has to be the same BG, Malcolm Pearsall (same name, charges, sentence length and geographic area) – now in prison looking for penpals… how nice for him he can make penpals and enjoy 3 square meals a day while he destroyed the lives of many people. Vile! I noticed he left out the 2cnd degree murder conviction on his ‘profile’..

http://www.convictpenpals.com/ads/Federal/Pearsall_Malcolm/Pearsall_Malcolm.html

[mikwrigh]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Great comments. First of all, what does “BG” stand for?

What piqued my thinking while reading previous posts is the concept of practicing a gun defense. I think any event where rules don’t exist is tough to practice, since there’s no guarantee or likelihood that “go” time will resemble anything rehearsed or allow for trained or conventional KM techniques.

I agree with Anthony that all scenarios, angles, etc., need to be drilled to have a realistic grasp of what could go right or wrong in a real-life situation. I also agree commitment is key once a defense is set into motion, but the decision to commit is the kicker. It’s the kind of situation that would replay in one’s mind, thinking of what could’ve been done differently if a “redo” were an option; assuming he survived the attempt.

It’s one of those things we strive to perfect, but hope to never have to perform.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

BG = ‘Bad Guy’

For the rest:

Training
Training
Training

“If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do… the body is never tired if the mind is not tired.”

-General George S. Patton

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Here’s a whole bunch of CCTV footage of real life armed robberies gleaned from the net. Some of the footage is very shocking.

Like air crash disasters – other people’s tragic incidents can be analysed so that the rest of us can learn lessons & hopefully be safer.

Most of the scenarios I found are at convenience stores, gas stations etc.
A big lesson right there is avoiding certain jobs if at all possible.

In almost all cases, the victims in these incidents have no chance at all, except to flow with the rapidly changing situation & have no realistic option for any type of KM disarm.
In most of these place of business armed incidents there is a physical barrier between the victim and perpetrator like a counter.

I was surprised by the amount of incidents where the robbers simply went ahead and shot people, usually without any warning or provocation whatsoever.

The element of surprise, ‘shock and awe’ is a major factor as people are taken totally off guard and stunned when the criminals storm in.

What seemed to consistently turn the tables in the victim’s favour was having a firearm themselves and immediately beginning a counterattack.

The footage:

(No realistic chance for disarm IMO)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VGjUMshWYA
http:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPjsbZ-Dcog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zQz48m1K-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPpX2HShl0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmOk-kujEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kKko2hrP7Y
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da0_1239222397
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=91b_1188588801

(Possibly a chance for trained KM disarm IMO)

http://http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dab_1201034870
http://http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=46a_1184755949

(Attempted or successful untrained disarms / pure blind luck)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ac_1199150148
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4c3_1186607122
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=575_1218238418

(When robbers shoot – warning some are very disturbing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgvX88ajw
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b3_1230428195
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee3_1204142413
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f66882ab89
http:///www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bc0b6500d
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cd2_1244430516
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=532_1242066845
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=994_1192145580
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca2_1186778348
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6f_1228529734

(Bad guy comes back and shoots after failed robbery)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyYENlAM9-g

(When clerks shoot back)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zdm67OkmL3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UgTlhY8Eqo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DjTR-Idrhk
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a8_1221308442
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1203364692
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=557_1227333081

(concealed carry motel clerk – incredible, ‘perfect’ reaction and tactics.
This guy had to have trained for this precise scenario.
Was it better to have just handed over the money? Who knows…)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM

(ATM robbery with gun)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=105_1238169102

(K9 gun disarm in gun store robbery attempt)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKNaHmBmv5w

[ce-ilhuicamina]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

Thanks for the links chocolate soldier thumbsup

[seachmall]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

quote Chocolate Soldier:

(concealed carry motel clerk – incredible, ‘perfect’ reaction and tactics.
This guy had to have trained for this precise scenario.
Was it better to have just handed over the money? Who knows…)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM

He drew the gun while behind the female clerk and then shot right passed the girl and her mother. That guy is lucky no one else got shot :OhMy:.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: If you aren’t PERFECT at pistol disarms… DON’T TRY!!! *WW*

quote Seachmall:

He drew the gun while behind the female clerk and then shot right passed the girl and her mother. That guy is lucky no one else got shot :OhMy:.

Its a question of the video angle perspective IMO that makes it appear he was closer to the bystanders than he really was. He drew behind the female clerk thus hiding his move from the bad guy & then had a clear field of fire.

His shots were accurate & all 3 hit the bad guy apparently – surely he’d trained for a robbery scenario or at least thought about it. Definitely looks like a trained shooter – not just firing wildly ‘spray & pray’. 3 for 3 on a moving target in a high stress situation. I’m sure at that moment he felt confidence, focus and being in the ‘zone’. He had enough space. Bullets go where the barrel is pointed – they don’t make any sudden ‘banana’ moves to the left or right. Wind & gravity can affect the trajectory over a longer distance but obviously these wouldn’t be relevant factors when shooting in a motel lobby.

The real ‘safety’ issues IMO were whoever else might have been in the line of fire outside in the parking lot and if it was a good idea to open fire in that situation. The robber could have shot back, hitting someone (probably by total chance). I don’t have the answers there – maybe the robber would have taken the money and left quietly, maybe he would have shot them all, or taken them to a back room and done unpleasant things, who knows. In any case, the bad guy is the one who set all the events in motion by entering the premises with a firearm with (probably) the intention to rob them.

[Author]

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