- This topic has 72 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Im not looking to start a war here but I have always heard that ATA is giving KM a bad name. On this forum, I havent seen evidence of that. Seems ATA people here are getting good training.
I was IMing someone on the net about Krav Maga and he is frustrated with his ATA school. Here is his response when I felt KM would be great as long as its KMWW or some recognized federation. This place is a KMWW place… Any thoughts on this?
It’s the real curriculum, in that everything I’ve seen on YouTube, etc, of Krav Maga techniques matches stuff that we’re taught in class… but it’s not -called- Krav Maga on anything but the “free lesson” flyers. They renamed it to “ATA Warrior Combat Systems” and broke the 5 level KM system into 9 ATA levels to match the belts, making it almost worthless if you want to continue training elsewhere.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
From what I’ve read, seems some (can’t say all) ATA schools are simply using KM to supplement their own current programs. Unless they’re a KMWW licensee, I would guess there’s nothing to force them to comply with a regular KM curriculum:dunno:
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
I don’t feel the training I am receiving in ATA is inferior nor do I have any knowledge of them renaming it to “ATA Warrior Combat Systems”. Our instructors still refer to it as Krav Maga in every sense and although we may not have the niceties that the larger schools have, they do a reasonable job with what they have.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Well first of all belts are wonderful to give a personal sense of achievement. Having said that I truly believe they make nice ornaments but won’t help you in a Self Defense situation.
To state the obvious, the attacker isn’t going to care.
Its about the material and not about a certificate or belt. If your friend is being taught the material and is able to execute it under duress in a stressful environment and protect his loved ones so he can go home safe isn’t that whats really important?
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Just someone Im chatting with so I can only go by what he is saying.
1. Changed name (not Krav Maga)
2. Classes are not cardio intensive
3. Material is consistent with what he sees about KMCould be a place seceding from KMWW for all we know.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Well then I think your buddy answered his own question – the material looks like what he has seen on the web.
The rest of it is interesting but shouldn’t affect his training.
Unless he needs a KMWW tee shirt and those you can get online 🙂
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Being new to the whole martial arts and self defense lifestyle (and, yes, it is definitely a lifestyle; just ask my wife. HA!), I guess I’m still kind of unsure about the whole belt thing anyway. Along with Krav, I joined a class called Combative Tactics, which incorporates self defense from an array of different. It has no belts. It’s the sort of stuff one would learn in special forces of bodyguarding school. Without the worry over the next level or next belt, it feels more free somehow, as if learning is one and only concern.
Where I’m at, Krav is currently only offered up to level one, with a possibility of level two in the near future. So I guess the level or belt thing hasn’t been much of a concern anyway, because I went into the class knowing this.
I can understand the sense of accomplishment, and as a source of being able to measure yourself technique wise. But I sure as heck would rather be able to walk away from a possibly nasty confrontation than worry over belts.
Who knows? As I get further along with the different disciplines I’m already thinking about working with, I might decide belts are the bee’s knees.Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
There are several schools that seem to be breaking down the curriculum in different ways. Some to include advanced weapons stuff early on, some to provide an easier platform on which to belt test, and others to satisfy the instructors need to put their own stamp on the system. In any case, it all seems to be done to improve retention. I guess it’s all fine as long as the techniques aren’t altered and as long as the principals are followed, but it would make interchangibility between schools a bit daunting. But then again, at what point does it cease to be Krav and become something else? Also, how would the school quantify the Instructors level of competence? A KMWW Instructor generally is not certified to teach gun until they have passed Expert 1, but if you introduce gun early into the curriculum of your “ATA system” and then you send an Instructor through Phase A, that instructor would be worthless to you because they would not be able to teach the advanced curriculum that you decided to interject into the basic curriculum. I think that this would lead to unqualified Instructors teaching techniques that they have no business teaching. Sounds like a slippery slope.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
I don’t know about all over, but when I was teaching KM in the Midwest, a VERY small ATA (a competitor) went to a weekend seminar and started advertising they were now certified an “Official Training Center” for KMWW (now KMAA). The studio was about 600 sq. feet and the instructor terribly out of shape. At the time I knew that KMWW was requiring much larger training space and many more years experience in traditional martial arts than she had so I called and alerted their legal folks in order to preserve the reputation of Krav Maga in the region. Not to mention the things I have listed in the next paragraph which were just the last straw which forced my hand. I don’t know if KMWW pursued it or not, but she did stop advertising. Maybe due to the police issues below, maybe due to a call from KMWW.
At one point she had even started calling in false reports to the local police dept. when we did our outside training. Stating it was a gang fight. Of course we had already alerted the agency prior to the classes, and I had a detective and several patrolman who trained with us so her calls were moot and she was charged.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
I just thought of something in hindsight… at that point in time, I suppose I had become the very thing I have come to hate – the company guys who thinks it’s all about keeping things under rule. I understand the need for regulating teachers to keep the bar high and prevent too much changing of principles. I just don’t like all the other stuff that tends to follow that. Sorry to have sounded like a hypocrite. I just hadn’t put 2 and 2 together until just a few minutes ago.
I suppose now I would have simply approached her myself and tried to reason something out.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Well,
Here is the problem with some of the things being said here. It’s all subjective. At our school we show Knife and Gun very early. In fact this is the way it should be done in my opinion. Nevada is the most dangerous state in America for 5 years running! Not teaching students defenses against attacks that they will see is irresponsible to me. I don’t care who’s system it is. Also in smaller schools that have one instructor teaching all of the Krav Maga classes the students can only grow as far as the instructor’s certificate says? No. This is also flawed. The Senior Instructor at the school should determine what other instructors can or can’t teach. They know what each instructor is capable of. My instructor has been doing this stuff for longer than I have been alive. I have trained under his direct supervision for years and I feel that has increased my skill level immensely. Belts, levels, scarf, handkerchiefs, stripes, shoes, etc… None of this means a thing. You either know it, or you don’t know it.
Disclaimer alert: I am not lumping alll ATA schools together when I say the following: The ATA schools that I have seen are great “martial arts schools” in the Mc Dojo image. But in reality they are fancy after school programs. Nothing more than an after school babysitting service for kids. I have serious issues with schools that promote 13 year olds to brown and black belt. Personally I refuse to train at any school that does this type of thing. It detracts from the validity of the training.
As far as schools renaming the techniques and creating their own curriculum is concerned it is the way of the world folks. I mean Imi studied other things before Krav Maga! So this is quite normal. The validity of the training should matter more than the label placed on the thing. So if you are happy at your facility you should stay there. If you are not happy than please find some place that will provide you with what you seek.
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Hello all,
I don’t have any personal experiences related to ATA schools. However, I’d like to give my 2 cents on few things that have been discussed in this thread.
Like Psyops, I have issues with schools that promote kids to brown and black belts, regardless of the MA that is taught. It’s something that I have only encountered here in the US and I have always been curious about that, how do the belts awarded to kids translate later on? It is my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that in KM-X, there are also belts/levels but that they don’t translate into any jump start for the adult version, meaning that when a kid who went through KM-X is old enough to start taking adult classes, they’ll still have to start at level I. Is it the case for other MA?
On another point, I agree that I don’t train for a belt and a belt won’t do me any good in a real life situation if I don’t know the materials and the principles behind the system. However, I do find belts/levels useful for a couple of reasons.
First, and I can only talk from a student perspective, it seems to me that having the system broken down in levels allows a student to build on by starting with fundamentals and easy techniques and then moving to more advanced techniques that require a good knowledge of these said fundamentals, and that organization in levels in the curriculum makes for a smoother transition.
Another advantage of a belt/level system is that anyone can train anywhere with ease as being of a certain level under KMWW means the same thing for everybody regardless of who you trained with or of who tested you.Sorry if I hijacked the thread, as I said it was just my 2 cents.
All the best,
Olivier
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
quote Psyops:Well,Here is the problem with some of the things being said here. It’s all subjective. At our school we show Knife and Gun very early. In fact this is the way it should be done in my opinion. Nevada is the most dangerous state in America for 5 years running! Not teaching students defenses against attacks that they will see is irresponsible to me. I don’t care who’s system it is. Also in smaller schools that have one instructor teaching all of the Krav Maga classes the students can only grow as far as the instructor’s certificate says? No. This is also flawed. The Senior Instructor at the school should determine what other instructors can or can’t teach. They know what each instructor is capable of. My instructor has been doing this stuff for longer than I have been alive. I have trained under his direct supervision for years and I feel that has increased my skill level immensely. Belts, levels, scarf, handkerchiefs, stripes, shoes, etc… None of this means a thing. You either know it, or you don’t know it.
Well Donavan, The problem with this is that when a school chooses to fly the Worldwide banner, it’s students have an expectation that the instructors have been vetted and trained by KMWW. There is nothing subjective about the training that you and I went through together, we either met the standard, or we did not. (Well, we both did!) If a school chooses to let instructors teach techniques that they have not been certified to teach, that school should lose their license. As licensees, we signed on the dotted line. It is disingenuous to accept the prestige and marketing of Worldwide and then give the students OUR interpretation of the system. As far as introducing gun and knife early, it has it’s drawbacks as well as it’s benefits. Why would I teach a gun defense when the student can’t even burst or throw a punch? That being said, it is a good motivator, and does have value on an occasional basis, as long as the instructor has been certified to teach it. Any school that allows their instructors to teach outside of their certification is lying to their students and cheapening the system, Not to mention violating their contract with Worldwide. That being said, don’t I owe you a beer from the last phase?
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
Beer? You said the magic word!!! Hey man how is Big Kev? I have been trying to get away from here to come and train. I just got rid of my smoothie bar so I should have some more free time. Well, that is until the twins get here. We are having a boy and a girl!
I agree with you though. Phase was awesome and it is something that I am proud of accomplishing. I don’t want anybody flying a KMWW flag without having earned it. That being said the curriculum can be a bit restrictive. We were the last group that was certified in weapon! So I am very proud of that! I will be buying you the beers my friend!
Re: Is This Indicitive Of ATA
quote Psyops:Beer? You said the magic word!!! Hey man how is Big Kev? I have been trying to get away from here to come and train. I just got rid of my smoothie bar so I should have some more free time. Well, that is until the twins get here. We are having a boy and a girl!I agree with you though. Phase was awesome and it is something that I am proud of accomplishing. I don’t want anybody flying a KMWW flag without having earned it. That being said the curriculum can be a bit restrictive. We were the last group that was certified in weapon! So I am very proud of that! I will be buying you the beers my friend!
Congrats on the twins! Big Kev just got his Brown Belt, Jarret W tested him at my school, it was awesome! I thought that since we were the last group that had weapons in phase C, that Expert 1 would be easier. Boy was I was wrong. See you soon.
- The topic ‘Is This Indicitive Of ATA’ is closed to new replies.
