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Okay, I actually posted this in the first thread, but I thought it might make a good individual topic:
I was wondering whether or not the KM stick defense is actually instinctive. All of our defenses are build on instinct, yet it seems that, instinctively, one would probably shy away from a heavy object being swung at one’s head, not dive in towards it. Now, don’t get me wrong, I think the stick defense we use makes perfect sense, as the dangerous part of the stick is it’s tip and the closer I get in, the less damage the weapon will do, but in terms of instinct, does it go against your natural reaction to move in toward he stick?
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GiantkillerRe: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
I think it’s instinctive, though I’ve never practised the defense. I’d rush the person as soon as they swing the bat back, otherwise if I’m too late for that I’ll take a step back or to the side to avoid the bat and as soon as it passes my body rush in while the momentum of the bat is still throwing the person off balance.
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
i think the same argument could be made regarding most defenses – it’s the basic flight vs fight concept. if you choose to fight, the instinct is to get in close and negate the advantage of the weapon. so, i think, the question becomes “is the defense instinctive once you have chosen to fight?” and again, i say yes.
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
Well, but you may not always have time to choose. And if you do, at that point it may become more of a tactical decision. And tactically, moving in is a good idea.
I’m just thinking, let’s say you look up and suddenly see something very heavy, like a metal pipe or a chair come flying toward your head, if you had a split second to move, wouldn’t you instinctively try to move back (away) from the heavy object, rather than in towards it?
You would also try to cover your head most likely, which is the beginning of the stabbing motion we do and so that part is instinctive. However, moving in toward the danger may not be (although it is probably the best defense you could do). If that is indeed the case, then moving toward the danger may in fact be opposite of what your body naturally tells you to do, which would be a big adjustment to make. It may not be as big an adjustment for something like knife defense, because in that case you will naturally cover your head, which can than easily be turned into a 360 block and counter, however it doesn’t require you to move in as deep toward the danger. Also, a knife is a smaller object and, instinctively, you may feel you can protect yourself by just covering your head. A heavy object, such as a metal pipe or chair, might smash right through your body, even if you cover your head and so you may feel a bigger urgency to move your body away from it.
Just some thoughts I had. I actually really like our defense and think it works well, those were just some observations.
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GiantkillerRe: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
i understand what you are saying, but, most people, when threatened with a handgun is to freeze, we train ourselves to react differently using instinctive motions to remove the threat. to me the stick defense is no different – the typical reaction maybe to create space, but that works to the advantage of the attacker. so we train our instincts to close the distance. at least that is how i see.
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
I know and I suppose I agree. As I’ve said, I do believe our defense is a good defense, but it may be a bit less instinctive than others. For choke for example, the hands will go instinctively to the throat, so all you have to do is add the pluck. But for stick, you body might want to go one way, but for the defense you’ll need to go another.
As for gun, that one is a threat, not an attack that is already in motion, so it might give you a bit more time to think about how to respond, or whether or not to respond at all (you might be able to just comply and give the attacker what he wants).
As for instinct in that case, you may lift your hands up if you see a gun and you can then use that motion to make the defense instead. Also, the gunman will instinctively pull the gun back if you are grabbing it, which we anticipate and then go in with his motion. So, using instinctive motions works well in that case.
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GiantkillerRe: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
GK another thing to keep in mind is that while we assume and react as everyone knows what they are doing in a fight (regardless of weapon) I would assume only 20% of people actually have some kind of training. Even less with weapons….If bthe person swung at me and missed or hit me in a non-critical area, they are probably going to get jacked up pretty bad……. Think of the way most people actually swing a stick….
Sideways, both hands on the end like a baseball bat. If somone was attacking me with a stick this would be the EXACT way I would want them to attack.
A) The swing will place them for the most part off balance and twisted to a dead side while I stand facing some portion of thier body.
B) Thier hand placement also puts them at a disadvantage, they have no leverage on the stick because of thier hands so close together, you could easily rip it from them.
C) People who fight with a weapon are usaully preoccupied that they have an advantage by holding something and are not aware of body positioning of thier opponent, relative location, hand movement or feet….
So instinctually even if you shy away from the swing, as soon as they swing around, I would immedietly burst in with a palm heel, kick, or hook to the ribcage right under the armpit (which should be exposed due to the momentum and twist of the swing).
Again just my .02, I’m a new level 2 so what do I know other than what seems right to me. Just another opinion here.
Cheers.
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
Good points. So, considering the way the attacker’s body would end up if he missed with his swing and the defender’s most natural reaction being to dodge the incoming stick, could moving out and then moving back in be a possible alternative to our regular stick defense (a bit like slash defense)? Again, I really like our stick defense and think logically it makes the most sense, but since KM tries to base everything on instinct, would moving away and then back in feel more natural than what we are currently doing? NOT criticizing by the way, just trying to spark some fun, KM related debate.
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GiantkillerRe: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
I’m only level 2 and haven’t gotten to stick defense yet, but as we were doing bobbing and weaving it kind of sparked some ideas.
Overhead swing (swinging vertically) or baseball bat you could do a bob/weave and literally be face to face with the guy at that point. Which is kind of what the defense looks like anyways ( I have yet to learn/practice it).
The other disadvantage to it is also as humans and “civilized mature adults” we try to defuse situations without violence. This being said its kind of a reaction for us to put our hands up back up and say no no no, stop. At that point your sitting in a stick’s optimum range, so I think really paying attention to the opponents body language is how you need to pick your reaction.
When approached with a confrentation I don’t really plan out my movements but I do come up with a few “opening” moves depending on the opponents stance in the event my opponent escalates to violence.
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
Well, diffusion would always be a good option if possible, but there may be some situations in which a guy just swings at you without warning and you have no choice but to try and defend.
A bob and weave move would probably not work well for overhead stick. Even if you get you head out of the way, you may still get hit in the shoulder. You may be able to duck under a baseball bat swing, but only if it’s high, if it comes in low and you duck, you may get hit in the head and it may be hard to tell at first what exactly the attacker is aiming at.
So, moving in deep would probably work best. I was just thinking, out of all KM defenses, this seems to be the one where you actually have to train yourself to go against what you most naturally would want to do. But if you can do this and learn not to shy away from the stick, but to move in toward it instead, it’s probably the best defense there is.
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GiantkillerRe: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
I think this is just one of those things you want to train enough to make it instinctive. I’m a little lucky, in the the whole move in close for baseball bat thing was taught to me by a very streetwise daddy, long before Krav.
it did prove itself to be wise advise in practical application sad to say. when I started Krav and I learned stick defense and saw it revolved around moving in close to get out of effective weapon range, it made a whole lot of sense. The instictive part for many others in terms of getting away is a valid point though.
I’m a large guy and not the fastest dude on the planet, therefore backing out fast enough to get out of range that way is not my best option, but thats me. this is an intersting topic though. put me in the “train it over and over until it is instinctive ” camp though
Re: KM Stick defense – instinctive?
Also don’t we kind of train to burst in anyways through the use of combatives with a 360 defense?
At my school we train to burst in with a 360 defense. We also train to change our position or move in with inside defense as well….. So all in all moving in is pretty much instinct to me.
I am a larger, athletic guy though 6’4″ 210 lbs. So moving in most of the time is advantageous to me because I could possibly tear somone up from the inside with brute strength.
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