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Found this somewhere on the internet, want to know what your opinions are. Anybody hear of this?
L.A. Cops Shoot, Kill Man, Baby in Gunfight
Monday, July 11, 2005
LOS ANGELES ó Police officers shot and killed a man Sunday night when he emerged from his home carrying a young girl following an hours-long standoff and opened fire, wounding one officer, authorities said. The girl was also killed in the gunfire.
The man killed was identified as Jose Raul Lemos, and the girl, about 17 months old, was related to him, police said. The officer, who was not immediately identified, was shot in the shoulder and was expected to survive.
There were three exchanges of gunfire between police and Lemos, who was either age 34 or 35, Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell told reporters. In the final exchange, at around 6:20 p.m., Lemos held the girl as he shot.
\”We did everything we could to hold our fire,\” McDonnell said. \”We showed a tremendous amount of restraint, but unfortunately the suspect’s actions dictated this. … It’s a true tragedy.\”
The standoff began at around 3:50 p.m. when officers responded to an area in South Los Angeles (search) west of Watts after residents reported a man behaving erratically and aggressively. Lemos fired at the officers and ran inside a fenced area that included his apartment and his car wash and detailing business. He had a 9 mm handgun and a shotgun and was intoxicated on drugs and alcohol, police said.
Police called in a SWAT team and tried to speak with the man; when they at one point attempted to help a neighbor escape the area, he fired at them and they fired back, McDonnell said.
Officers were struggling with the thought that they killed an infant, he said.
\”The officers are taking it very hard,\” McDonnell said. \”Anytime you have a baby killed, it takes its toll.\”
Yes, heard about it on the news yesterday. They didn’t have a lot of additional information and I guess there’ll be an intense investigation. It was obviously a difficult situation for the cops, but from what I’ve heard so far, I just don’t know… Do you really have no other choice but to shoot dozens of random bullets at a guy holding a baby? Doing that, it’s almost certain that the baby will be killed, so that shouldn’t really be an option. Maybe they should have called the SWAT team in instead of regular police, maybe they would have been able to handle it better? Well, we’ll see what the investigation says…
I thought police snipers were supposed to be very good shots. Thats the last time I trust my life to those guys :o( Honestly its a sad incident, but I think the only thing the po-po could have done in this situation was what they did. Just less accurately than I would have hoped. Only two options in this situation…
1) Hold fire let the man put other police/innocent people in danger
2) Fire and hope they miss the little girl.Still a sad day for that girls family, I am sure the guy wasnt much of a loss to them. 😥
There are a lot of douchebag cops out there, but I don’t think any of them is going to fire on a guy holding a baby unless they have no other choice. Killing the child most likely messed up a lot of those cops lives for years; they’ll see the girl every time they go to sleep. Based on the little information in the article, I hope none of them catches hell for it, because they’re all gonna give themselves enough trouble. Besides, if someone shoots at you, you have to shoot back. I just wish they’d had a sniper on standby to kill the guy without hurting the child.
Couldn’t the police have shot the guy in the leg and then he would have gone down and then grabbed the baby?
From what I’ve read, I think the police was outside the guy’s shop and he was inside. At some point one of the officers shot at him and they thought they had hit him (maybe even killed him?) and then they all moved in. But he wasn’t even wounded and retreated to an office and as the cops came in he started shooting and they shot back, something like 60 rounds. He was holding the child the whole time I think. I guess they made a mistake by assuming the suspect had been hit and just storming the place and when he suddenly started shooting they may have been startled and just shot back.
Anyway, there are a lot of protests going on here in LA and the investigation will continue… They might also have video tape of the incident from inside the shop.
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quote \”Leftie79\:Couldn’t the police have shot the guy in the leg and then he would have gone down and then grabbed the baby?You have got to be kidding me…
Familiarize yourself with firearms, tactics and liability before making a statement as ridiculous as this…
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quote \”Eddie C.\:quote \”Leftie79\:Couldn’t the police have shot the guy in the leg and then he would have gone down and then grabbed the baby?You have got to be kidding me…
Familiarize yourself with firearms, tactics and liability before making a statement as ridiculous as this…
Eddie,
I am sorry I am not familiar with firearms, tactics and liability. I don’t know anything about guns how to handle them etc. nor do I know anything about hostage situations and what to do. It was just a thought as other people on this board have probably thought about other things that could have been done also.
It’s easy to Monday morning quarterback. This guy was firing at officers and others, while holding an infant. This was a two and a half hour standoff, in which this guy was endangering the lives of many. He’s to blame here, no one else. Saying things like, \”shoot dozens of random bullets at a guy holding a baby\” is ridiculous. The term \”random\” in this context is offensive.
If you think these officers aren’t having a hard time sleeping right now, even knowing they did what they could, you just don’t get it.
I think the mistake the cops made was (and they actually were the SWAT team, not regular police) that they stormed the place, wrongly assuming the guy was dead. He wasn’t and started shooting and then, I assume (from what I’ve read), they just got scared, turned their guns into the direction the shots were coming from and started firing, 60 rounds, at the office the guy with the baby was in. I think you could call these random shots, because they weren’t aimed specifically at the guy, just into the general direction of the guy and the baby.
Of course, the cops didn’t want the baby to die and will feel bad about it for the rest of their lives and of course the guy is to blame for starting it all, but if tactical mistakes were made in this operation that ultimately led to the death of the baby, then the police should investigate and learn from them, so that if a similar situation should ever happen again, maybe it will have a different outcome.
Leftie, you never shoot anyone in the leg with a firearm on purpose, the only reason you EVER shoot anyone is to stop a threat of serious bodily harm or loss of life to yourself or someone else. I am not slamming your question but trying to answer it without belittling the question. If you shoot someone in the leg, they still have the option to shoot you or in this case the baby. Shooting center of mass is what most LEOís are taught as it is an easy target and will ëprobablyí neutralize the threat. A head shot within certain areas of the brain will stop all motion and the body will simply slump, in theory. The cops in this case thought they had neutralized the threat when they entered and then found themselves in the poor position of having to shoot to defend themselves. In doing this they killed the child. I would venture to say that anyone of the officers involved would gladly trade his life for that of the little girl.
That said, the incident should be examined, not to cast blame and litigious implications, but to learn how to avert such tactical mistakes in the future. (As Killer has already stated.)
JC
Of course any operation, \”successful\” or otherwise, should be examined. Were mistakes made? Maybe, but name any human that is a part of any team that doesn’t make mistakes. To flippantly state that the cops were firing at \”random\” and to assume they got \”scared\” and just started shooting is irresponsible and unfair. LA has tremendous SWAT officers, but guess what–they’re human.
One last thing–\”but if tactical mistakes were made in this operation that ultimately led to the death of the baby\”–the father’s decision to hold his child at gunpoint is what ultimately led to the death of the baby.
Of course the father should have never put his child in danger like that. But crazy people are out there and these things happen. That’s why we have a SWAT team. They are trained to deal with these types of situations. Their mission that day was to bring this standoff to an end and first and foremost to rescue the baby. Instead they ended up shooting the very person they were send to protect. Of course they are only human and mistakes can happen, but it’s also natural for the public to ask questions about it and wonder if this outcome couldn’t have been avoided by using different tactics.
Their job that day was to stop the problem and gain safe control. It is very unfortunate that the baby died, and the tactics should be reviewed, but this guy is the one who was firing random shots which could have injured and/or killed many more people.
\”In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.\”–Theodore Roosevelt
Their job, first and foremost, was not to rescue the baby, but to contain and stop the threat.
My understanding of the encounter with the SWAT team was not that they entered the building \”spraying and praying\” but that as they were preparing to enter the suspect initiated an assault wounding one SWAT officer. They had no choice but to stop the threat.
My PD had an officer who killed someone Saturday night. He was in a foot pursuit and the suspect stopped, turned and attacked with a knife. The officer deflected the blade with his forearm, getting cut, and fired one round striking the suspect in the chest. The suspect expired at the hospital. What was the aftermath? The suspect’s wife was on the news asking, \”Why did they have to shoot him? They’ve always tazed him before. They didn’t have to kill him.\”
Moral of the story, it’s always easy to blame and critique police officers. It is absolutely phenominal how often I hear ignorant criticisms of police, tactics, blah blah blah. Even this site is rife with ignorance of law enforcement. To be blunt, learn what it is like to be an officer, put your ass on the line like so many people do by becoming an officer (or even a reserve), or shut the hell up.
Do officers make mistakes? Of course. But, do not talk about tactics or offer criticisms unless you can explain the PPCT force continuum from top to bottom.
I’ll get off my soapbox now…
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