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Right, this is going to be a bit controversial I’m sure so I’ll start by saying that I have nothing but respect for KM, I’m really glad I joined and I do realize I’m just a little, insignificant beginner 🙂
That being said, God thankfully gave me two eyes to see with and I just can’t help but noticing something that is really bugging me recently.
Let’s see: the exercise is 360 defense with counter attack. Both partners are right handed. The ‘attacker’ throws a weak cross in slow motion that has absolutely no chance to hit. The defender blocks correctly, counter attacking simultaneously with say, a cross of his own, aimed vaguely at the jaw of his attacker. But it’s also a slow one (clearly out of fear of hurting the partner) and it never connects. Then here’s the bit that really gets me: the attacker now stops moving completely, while the defender continues the counter by correctly side stepping to the left, and delivers 2 hammerfist to the head – but in such an apathetic manner that it looks more like a little joyful windmill of the fist rather than the brutal, devastating attack it’s supposed to mimic. In the end, this has nothing to do with a real fight, and frankly I just don’t understand how this could help learning much in terms of useful, applicable defense technique.
In fact, there are several (what I think are) P3s in my class who act like that – which worries me a bit. Just because they did ‘the right moves’ in ‘the right order’ – the exercise is considered correct.
Now I’ll be fair – usually the people doing that are the ‘weakest’, physically speaking, in fact I spotted that in women a lot. The ‘bigger’ ones are far more imposing in their counters and clearly could do a lot of damage if they actually ‘hit’ the person.
Initially, that led me to think that people get what they put in Krav Maga, that is, if they work hard and ‘pretend’ it’s a real attack they would learn a lot more than this ‘half-assed’ way of handling drills.
But now, after seing the kind of training they do at the KMF in the Human Weapon program (where that female instructor elbowed the show presenter as a welcome gift), well I feel my class is a bit lacking if it allows for this sort of thing.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and risk saying that if the instructor insisted on more physical contact the said student would probably leave the class, because either: 1) they would not see the point of risking getting hurt in a drill or 2) would realize that their hammerfist windmill mimick have actually zero effect in real life due to their lack of physical strenght.
Which leads me to point 2…. in the drills the ‘fights’ are kept short in a sense… you block, counter with 2, 3 moves and repeat. But unless you’re built decently and get lucky with a hit in the jaw or similar, I hardly see how the fight would be over so soon… Since people fight like they train, isn’t it a bit dangerous to train that way? Shouldn’t sparring take a bigger emphasis as part of training?
Of course it’s something I’ll raise with the instructor in due time but I thought I’d post her to get some feedback, as these forums have been great so far!! 😀
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
I can tell you that at our school as we are progressing to higher levels we are driven to throw punches/kicks in such a manner that if the defense is done incorrectly that the person will get hit. We’re certainly not throwing “hard” as we don’t want to hurt each other, but we ARE throwing at a relatively reasonable speed. We are also told to keep it realistic such that we are moving and coming from different distances, as opposed to just standing in one spot and firing punches like a robot.
I’ve been popped in the mouth a number of times when working inside defenses. It’s better in class than on the street, and if I’m not doing it right that is really the only way I will know.
In regard to Human Weapon, I think it’s hard to draw a parallel to a class like ours because we only see small pieces of longer lessons. I tend to think that particular elbow was a little “over the top” and was included because it made good TV.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
Same here Grappler, we aim to hit the person if they do not defend correctly. We start slow to develop the technique, once the technique is understood, things speed up. 360’s and Inside Defenses all are aimed at hitting the defender so they have to defend properly .
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
quote Cigaro78:But now, after seing the kind of training they do at the KMF in the Human Weapon program (where that female instructor elbowed the show presenter as a welcome gift), well I feel my class is a bit lacking if it allows for this sort of thing.Not to be nitpicky (mostly I’m just tired of seeing the announcement stating I haven’t posted in a while) but wasn’t it Fight Quest where that happened?
While being elbowed in the face is an interesting and vital learning experience, its not something I’d prefer to have happen on the first day of class. At least let me catch my breath after forcing my body to do movements, and use muscles, in ways I’ve not asked it to before introducing me to that sort of body conditioning!!
On a more serious note, what if these supposed ‘weaker’ individuals have difficulty coordinating their bodies to handle the various pieces that make up the entire defense-counter without going slow? While that doesn’t mean they should half-ass it through the movements, they also shouldn’t speed it up until they get it down. For instance, there’s a woman in our class that flails about dangerously whenever she tries to up the intensity – yikes! In her case (or more like her partner’s case) working slow is very beneficial.
– Kelly
PS Not sure what a P3 is since I’m a KMWW’er so you may need to explain that one for me.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
Speak to your instructor with your concerns. I train in London too who do you train with? It’s been my experience that the intensity will increase as you get more experienced and more comfortable with the techniques.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
quote zen4me:PS Not sure what a P3 is since I’m a KMWW’er so you may need to explain that one for me.IKMF uses a patch based grading system rather than belts. P refers to practitioner levels of which there are 5 with P5 being the highest. After that there are graduate, expert and master levels. Someone on the graduate levels will usually be an instructor (but not always). More information here
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
1) There may be students of varying skill levels in your class. If this is the case, the slower students need to go at a slower pace in order to ensure their safety and proper technique. If you are more advanced, you should be seeking out the other advanced students to go through the motions with you at a better speed.
2) Every strike in training should be thrown to connect. if it is not, the partner should be correcting that. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to tell my partner to punch me in the F*ing mouth and stop wasting my time. By default many people will not punch at your face…
3) Krav Maga is not a sport. Many of the things we learn cannot be done full speed without a great deal of proficiency because we train to maim, disable, cripple and kill. It could be that your instructor does not feel the class is ready to advance the drill without the risk of injury.
“With proficiency comes speed” goes the addage.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
quote Kior:IKMF uses a patch based grading system rather than belts. P refers to practitioner levels of which there are 5 with P5 being the highest. After that there are graduate, expert and master levels. Someone on the graduate levels will usually be an instructor (but not always). More information hereThanks Kior, I appreciate the quick explanation and the link.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
quote Cigaro78:Let’s see: the exercise is 360 defense with counter attack. Both partners are right handed. The ‘attacker’ throws a weak cross in slow motion that has absolutely no chance to hit. The defender blocks correctly, counter attacking simultaneously with say, a cross of his own, aimed vaguely at the jaw of his attacker. But it’s also a slow one (clearly out of fear of hurting the partner) and it never connects. Then here’s the bit that really gets me: the attacker now stops moving completely, while the defender continues the counter by correctly side stepping to the left, and delivers 2 hammerfist to the head – but in such an apathetic manner that it looks more like a little joyful windmill of the fist rather than the brutal, devastating attack it’s supposed to mimic. In the end, this has nothing to do with a real fight, and frankly I just don’t understand how this could help learning much in terms of useful, applicable defense technique.Speaking as a student, I’ll offer a bit of feedback.
It’s possible the instructor is planning to increase the intensity as the competence of the students increase? Ideally, these 360 drills should involve the student being hit if they fail on the technique. Ultimately, these techniques need to be performed and learned under stress so they can be useful in the high duress of a violent encounter. If there’s no consequence of failure, i.e. being hit, then there is little stress involved in the training and the student is not well prepared to defend him or herself.
Based on your description, there’s little to no stress involved in the drill, but it’s also important that new students walk before they run and build their intensity only when they have a reasonable chance of not hurting each other.
From what I’ve seen intensity, while desired, isn’t always a given. It’s very easy, even with experienced students to fall into the habit of pantomime and acting like you’ve been hit when really your partner’s attacks or defenses are sloppy and weak. You develop a pattern and it can influence the whole class unless it’s recognized and steps are taken to correct it.
I would say the proper form to aspire to is more aggressive than you’re describing, but it could just be the phase your class is in now and perhaps greater intensity is in the future.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
I personally thought she was a bi@tch for doing that… That show was an excellent example of how not to teach anything. They were way harder on him than they were with her in the grove… She was disrespectful. It was all for show… and a disgrace to hardworking, tough, female instructors everywhere. You don’t have to be a flaming bi@tch to teach the importance of survival.
Anyway, intensity is very difficult to get out of people sometimes. I think all instructors struggle with getting our students to dig deep. Some students dig deep, but come up with little. They are not very athletic or aggressive, so it becomes our responsiblity to bring it out of them in a positive and constructive way. People get injured in a self-defense class everytime they come in, they will stop coming in and that will not benefit them in the future. If you are one that likes it more intense, find those other people that want the same and make them your regular training partners.
Lots of sage advice here, hope it helps you out…
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
If you try to do something super fast and super aggressive, the first time you learn it – you’ll never get it right. I’m guilty of doing that myself – I’m highly competitive, and I like to do things well – and aggressively! – from the very beginning. My instructor has taught us that you have to do things slowly and accurately to build that foundation before you can do it fast.
That is not saying, however, that you can’t do something slowly, and still be aggressive. I get frustrated when we’re working, say, a 360 defense and someone refuses to actually swing at me. It’s ok to go slowly, but still go at someone in a realistic way.
All that being said, if I’m training with someone who’s brand new, I want them to have a good experience – so I’m going to give them some some success, make them feel like they’ve learned something – which will bring them back. And it’s true – if they get beat up and/or hurt their first class, they’re not likely to come back again.
While the Fight Quest instructor was entertaining – elbows in the face are good TV! – it’s not realistic for normal training. Remember, the hosts on that show are trained MMA fighters, so they’re used to getting hit in the face. The average KM student is not.
Bottom line: While it is important that you don’t do things halfway – my instructor would never put up with that! – that doesn’t mean you need to go fast, hard and aggressive while learning.
And if you DO like to train hard – find someone who likes to train hard with you! It’s why I almost always train with guys – the tough ones, that is.. 🙂
–A–
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
a wise man once told me, “practice does NOT make it perfect. Perfect practice makes it PERFECT!”
I know that to simulate the “street” you should train with intensity and realistic feedback from the attacker. There’s 2 problems with that in my view.
1. again.. if you practice like ****… you’ll get ****. everyone should learn the movement correctly, practice slow/correctly, than ramp it up.
2. what is “the street” or a “realistic” response from an attacker? We can say that an attacker would not just stand there while i block and counter punch, BUT at the same time you can’t say exactly how they would react either. know one can because its all dynamic! every person will react differently to any stimulus(getting punched , knee, etc.) EVERYTIME. Now i’m not saying doing it under no stress or your partner standing still while you beat on him is the way to do the drill. You MUST practice all of your techniques under stress once you’ve learn the technique.. what I’m saying is, we shouldn’t think that we know how someone will react in any situation either.What we all need to do is learn and understand the principles of the technique so that you may apply them to any situation.
Re: Lethargic moves and the efficiency of the lessons
What is the training protocol anyway, should you be trying to make it as hard as possible for your partner to execute a successful defense? Is this something you should discuss with your partner? I know I’ve asked my partner to make it harder on me before just so I can see how hard it would be to do things like successfully disrupt a tight headlock, etc. But, it seems that you could overdo this, though. If you are making it too hard, it might make the defender really get wild and desperate and hurt you or themselves. Yet, unless you train for this, how do you know if you can really do it?
I haven’t really had an instructor discuss this with us yet. I can ask the next time, of course, but this thread just got me thinking about it just now.
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