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Hello everyone!
I’m a 34 year old male who has no experience in any self defense system. I weight lift in the gym and would say I’m in above average shape. Years ago I had a total of 5 shoulder surgeries (SLAP REPAIRS, labrum tears) that I got when I was younger and stupid with weightlifting the wrong way. It’s been years since my last surgery. My shoulders are fine as long as I use perfect form with the weights, and I don’t hyper extend them or get them twisted etc. my range of motion isn’t as normal as all of yours I’m sure. Inflamation can happen quite easy if my shoulder is stressed past the 90 degree mark with any weight bearing or even just force.
The vids I’ve watched on Krav Maga on YouTube seems like I’d be ok, the only thing that looked risky is when the class is partnered up and you have to play the “bad guy”. I’ve seen moves where it looks like you are twisting their shoulder and stretching way past their body. This concerns me because I’m afraid it would re-tear my labrum in my shoulder.
I located the gym I’d train in but haven’t been able to talk to the instructor. The owner of the gym told me via email that there are no beginner classes and that I should just start whenever their instructor begins. He also told me just to mention my shoulders to the instructor before class and he’d make modifications for me.
My questions;
1. You think it’s ok for me to train Krav Maga with my shoulders?
2. Are there modifications for my situation?
3. Are instructors and classmates generally understanding with situations like this, or will I just be the “annoying student” no one wants to train with?
I plan on training 2-3 times a week in Krav Maga and lifting 4 days a week at my gym. I also plan on talking with my chiropractor about it for advice or stretches/exercises to help my shoulders out and prevent injury. The reason I want to learn Krav Maga is I’m a court officer serving, evicting, and seizing property of defendants in low income dangerous neighborhoods. The only problem is if I re-tear my shoulder I’d be out a lot of money since I’d have to take several months off of work.
So do I roll the dice and learn Krav safely?
Or do you recommend not training due to my history of shoulder surgery?I want to thank everyone in advance for their time and feedback. I apologize for the length of this post. I just really hope we can find a way for me to safely train!
Thanks,
Carlo
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
I started Krav Maga about one month ago. I am 52, recently had significant weight loss, and started this program to gain some self confidence and strength. I’ve ever done any martial arts before. I am some back issues (in fact I skipped tonight’s class as my back was hurting a bit) but explained them to the instructor. My range of motion is also not to the level of most of the other students. The instructor is good at letting me know when something might be a strain on my back and advises to go easy. I think you should speak with your shoulder surgeon to be sure you are not going to do anything to compromise your health. Good luck.
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
1. No way to tell. I doubt anyone here knows you, your conditions, your abilities, your restrictions, what is being taught at your school, how it’s being taught, whom you’re training with, ETC. That goes for any other martial art, any other school, any other physical activity you’re thinking about.
2. Possibly. I doubt anyone here knows what your situation is, what things are being done, what things you would need to modify, how you will need to modify them, if those modifications are ok with your school/instructor, ETC.
3. Depends. I doubt anyone here knows who your instructor is, how he/she is as a person or instructor, his/her ground rules or expectations, who your classmates are, how they are as people/training partners, their expectations, ETC.
Not to be an ahole but look at what you’re asking and look at whom you’re asking. Do you really expect anyone here to be able to provide more than a “maybe” to any of your questions?
Here are a few pesos:
You can build a LOT of functional strength just from bodyweight exercises.
IMO, a physical therapist or orthopedic specialist will be better to ask about your shoulders than a chiropractor. And yes, I have shoulder tears too (not as bad as yours but enough to put me light duty for a long time).
IME, there is NO way to make training any practical martial art 100% completely safe!
If you have to deal with unhappy, very possibly assaultive sh1theads, do you really think “not training” is recommendable???
The “safest” way to train may be to find a legit/skilled instructor and work privates (one on one or two on one) with him/her within your limitations/restrictions.
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
Able to post but takes “forever” to get past website glitches… 🙁
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
I appreciate it. I’ll look into private one on one training. I asked the questions I asked just curious on if there was a lot of shoulder stress with awkward stretches and torques.
If I went on a baseball forum and asked if the sport is stressful on the shoulders most would answer if you plan on being a pitcher. I was just curious if Krav has a lot of awkward shoulder movements.
Also I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t be the only student that has ever had orthopedic surgery.
Anyways hopefully the instructor will understand my situation and teach me modifications that won’t put my shoulders through unnecessary stress.. Otherwise I’ll just rely on my HK.
Thanks again
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
There can be some great MA/MMA training available to you from a variety of sources.
The reason I mention privates is because, as an instructor, I know that I’m better suited at providing custom tailored training for a particular student than 99.9999% (yes, I’m making that number up) of his/her fellow students, who may not know the material as well, not have the same abilities and control, not be able to teach to a particular person’s wants/needs/learning style/limitations, or not recognize danger signs or safety concerns, etc.
I can’t remember the last time I injured someone while directly training him/her (knocking on my head). OTOH, I’ve had quite a few injuries occur when students are training with each other. E.g. just yesterday, in a class of 84 bodies, I had one mild concussion, one tweaked back/sciatic, and one strained neck (final assessment still pending). I know for sure that if I had been paired with each of those students, training those drills/techniques with them at the times of occurrence, chances are the injuries would never have happened.
How much stress will your shoulder be put through and whether or not it will affect you are another couple of YMMV questions. I don’t know what is comfortable or dangerous for your shoulder(s) – what kinds of motions, what kinds of loads/pressures, what kinds of exertions, etc. I don’t know what your particular krav school trains on a regular or nightly basis – are you doing stand up or ground, are you sprawling or doing pushups, are you punching/elbowing, are you doing control holds/joint manipulations, are you grappling, etc.
As far as baseball goes, you would also be using your shoulders for running, batting, catching, throwing, etc – not only pitching. Someone’s shoulder condition may not allow pitching but other baseball activities. Someone’s shoulder condition may not allow any baseball movements/motions at all…
“awkward” is a relative term – awkward could be due to for example not having done something before, doing something similar but in a slightly different way, or doing something that bumps up against ones limitations (e.g. strength, flexibility, coordination, etc)
Hopefully, your instructor will be able to work something out for you, alternative techniques, modified curriculum, allowance of your limitations or recognition of your concerns, pairing with good training partners, etc.
If you are that concerned that MA/MMA training is too much for your shoulder(s), you may want to reconsider working out in the field (are you light duty or full duty?). As you know, as much as a particular piece of dirt may have it coming, we don’t always have a green light to use deadly force, even if we are working with a bum [insert your particular body part here]…
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
quote Don:There can be some great MA/MMA training available to you from a variety of sources.The reason I mention privates is because, as an instructor, I know that I’m better suited at providing custom tailored training for a particular student than 99.9999% (yes, I’m making that number up) of his/her fellow students, who may not know the material as well, not have the same abilities and control, not be able to teach to a particular person’s wants/needs/learning style/limitations, or not recognize danger signs or safety concerns, etc.
I can’t remember the last time I injured someone while directly training him/her (knocking on my head). OTOH, I’ve had quite a few injuries occur when students are training with each other. E.g. just yesterday, in a class of 84 bodies, I had one mild concussion, one tweaked back/sciatic, and one strained neck (final assessment still pending). I know for sure that if I had been paired with each of those students, training those drills/techniques with them at the times of occurrence, chances are the injuries would never have happened.
How much stress will your shoulder be put through and whether or not it will affect you are another couple of YMMV questions. I don’t know what is comfortable or dangerous for your shoulder(s) – what kinds of motions, what kinds of loads/pressures, what kinds of exertions, etc. I don’t know what your particular krav school trains on a regular or nightly basis – are you doing stand up or ground, are you sprawling or doing pushups, are you punching/elbowing, are you doing control holds/joint manipulations, are you grappling, etc.
As far as baseball goes, you would also be using your shoulders for running, batting, catching, throwing, etc – not only pitching. Someone’s shoulder condition may not allow pitching but other baseball activities. Someone’s shoulder condition may not allow any baseball movements/motions at all…
“awkward” is a relative term – awkward could be due to for example not having done something before, doing something similar but in a slightly different way, or doing something that bumps up against ones limitations (e.g. strength, flexibility, coordination, etc)
Hopefully, your instructor will be able to work something out for you, alternative techniques, modified curriculum, allowance of your limitations or recognition of your concerns, pairing with good training partners, etc.
If you are that concerned that MA/MMA training is too much for your shoulder(s), you may want to reconsider working out in the field (are you light duty or full duty?). As you know, as much as a particular piece of dirt may have it coming, we don’t always have a green light to use deadly force, even if we are working with a bum [insert your particular body part here]…
Don,
Thank you for your response. I understand and agree on the difference of one on one training versus a full class. I’ll definitely start with one on one’s until me and the instructor get a better idea of what “aggravates” my shoulders.
As of now just in the weight lifting world and every day activities my shoulders only bother me when I bench press to deep ( past 90 degrees). I can do as many push-ups as I want with no pain. A shoulder lateral raise with heavier weights will give me problem if I don’t use perfect form. Basically I make sure all my workouts don’t stretch my shoulders past the 90 degree mark. Now if you were to grab my arm and pull it behind my back with force that would most likely hurt me.
I have a body blade now that I’ll be using to strengthen all the little ligaments and tendons in the shoulder too.
I’m not sure what his style of Krav is. But what I’ll do is book him for a one on one even if all we do is talk and decide he doesn’t think it’s a good idea for me. I’d rather have his full attention than to try and ask him before a real class starts.
Beleive me I really hope I can learn at least some basic stuff! I don’t want to make the news for deadly force! I want to learn how to defend against some strikes and counter to end the threat. I will update you later after I meet with the instructor and see what he has to say.
Thanks again Don
Carlo
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
Hey Carlo,
Sounds like you may be too gung ho for your own good! thumbsup I’m no doctor or therapist but I think less weight and more reps with good form would be better, especially if you’re still regaining your pre-injury range of motion/strength… Maybe doing more range of motion/stretching exercises than weight or load bearing for now, especially if like me you elected Not to have surgery and are trying to make the best of it (even though the injuries won’t heal on their own).
I used body blades in physical therapy too. Some of those elastic bands can be useful as well – dunno if you have a Big 5 sporting good store near you but they sell various weights of rubber tubing with handles and door anchors and stuff…
Before you book him for one on one, you could look into the possibility of just sitting off to the side and watching a few of the classes that you would normally be attending – see what kinds of activities they do, how he teaches, and how your fellow students are as training partners. My impression is that many Krav students are more like normal people (as opposed to some of the knuckle dragging, testosterone dripping meathead out to prove something kinds of students you sometimes find at other martial arts schools/dojos/gyms).
All of us who didn’t slip through the cracks feel the same way – none of us want to us deadly force but we know that sometimes we have to in order to protect ourselves and others and we shouldn’t hesitate when it’s reasonable to do so…
Best of luck healing up and in your search for good training!
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
Carlo;
I started krav last year at age 65. I had two suspect shoulders but wanted to try. After four months at 2-3 classes/week, I tore my rotator cuff in the right shoulder, which was in pretty bad shape to begin with. After recovering I went back and developed three small tears in my left cuff. Again, I had injured shoulders to begin with but the stress of Krav put the finishing touches on them. I will have surgery shortly, have been training Krav with a bag at home and plan to return to classes after surgery.
My advice: There is no substitute for being in a good gym. The instructors want to know what limitations students have and encourage me to work around them, e.g. instead of doing burpees, I can do knee bends or lunges. When taking classes after surgery, I told my partners to take it easy on my right shoulder. All did but one and I just changed partners because he couldn’t seem to control himself. I am careful when doing strikes as they put stress on the shoulder. I don’t always go full power when doing hook punches or hammerfist strikes, rather, I’ll go full power for a portion of the training, then back off to 50% and concentrate on form. If my training is causing my shoulders to ache, it is a sign that I am doing something wrong and I will adjust.
Finally, there is no pat answer to your question. You won’t know until you try and be careful if you do.
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
quote KravGeezer:Carlo;I started krav last year at age 65. I had two suspect shoulders but wanted to try. After four months at 2-3 classes/week, I tore my rotator cuff in the right shoulder, which was in pretty bad shape to begin with. After recovering I went back and developed three small tears in my left cuff. Again, I had injured shoulders to begin with but the stress of Krav put the finishing touches on them. I will have surgery shortly, have been training Krav with a bag at home and plan to return to classes after surgery.
My advice: There is no substitute for being in a good gym. The instructors want to know what limitations students have and encourage me to work around them, e.g. instead of doing burpees, I can do knee bends or lunges. When taking classes after surgery, I told my partners to take it easy on my right shoulder. All did but one and I just changed partners because he couldn’t seem to control himself. I am careful when doing strikes as they put stress on the shoulder. I don’t always go full power when doing hook punches or hammerfist strikes, rather, I’ll go full power for a portion of the training, then back off to 50% and concentrate on form. If my training is causing my shoulders to ache, it is a sign that I am doing something wrong and I will adjust.
Finally, there is no pat answer to your question. You won’t know until you try and be careful if you do.
Good advice. And pretty much nailed it. Be your own advocate, work at your own pace and always let instructors and training partners know about injuries or specific problems.
This isn’t cardio bootcamp, remember one of our guiding principals that the techniques can be done by an average person.
Average people have bad knees, shoulders etc.
I always ask at beginning line up if anyone has any injuries I should know about.
To take it one step further, I even tell training partners if I’m having a rough day and ask them to go light on me because they don’t want to see me in a bad mood.
Re: Need some feedback before my first class please.
Well, Carlo, I gave myself a 70th birthday present, Krav Maga. I do understand your concerns. That said, I’ve learned I have to work around my issues. Life isn’t fair and it never has been. We do what we can do with what we have. I have certain limitations and I have strengths that counter those limitations. Start out slow and easy gradually increasing strength, power, and speed but, don’t over do it, know yourself. Set your own pace. Respect yourself and others you meet on the mat and counter aggression you meet on the street with greater aggression. This is Krav, it’s not dancing with the stars, get it done as quickly as possible and get out alive. Any fight you can walk away from is a good fight.
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