Never in a fight before.

[crash20]

Here is a question that may have been asks lots of times and possible even by me. I am one of those people who has never been in a fight and until recently very proud of that. Now that I have been training for a little while I do nothing but watch fights I size up guys on the street passing by just wondering what would I do. Lots of things are coming up. I am a gay man and I often get comments at work or odd looks in class. The comments at work are things like that is so gay. It could be doing anything and the comment will come up, as a result I am questioning myself more than ever. Here on this forum I have been referred to as a girlyman. These days I seem to be rebelling and I am starting to feel uncomfortable with these labels. I starting to feel like taking karv maga has turned into something other than just learning to defend myself. A large part of it is starting to feel like an exploration of my masculinity which seems to be defined by one’s level of aggressiveness. The question is can I change who I am and still be true to myself? If size and power are not the most important thing in Krav Maga why do we have women’s classes in some schools. Why do the more aggressive guys who seem to know how to get into the right positions almost instinctively or so it seems to me tend to do better and advance faster? The other day I was speaking to a guy in the locker room who I had assumed was gay like myself it just not spoken about because it is not why we are there. Come to find out he is not gay and in fact has been according to him all kinds of fights, he did badly he said but made it clear that he does not fear fighting. So now I am wondering what does it say about a man who has never been in a fight if anything?

[tzrider]

Re: Never in a fight before.

quote Crash20:

So now I am wondering what does it say about a man who has never been in a fight if anything?

Your post covered a lot of ground, so I’m not totally sure what you’re asking. If the above quote is the bottom line question, one possible answer is that maybe you’ve been a relatively well adjusted person who is able to find more productive ways to resolve conflict than just throwing down.

The point of training isn’t to empower you to kick someone’s ass if they say things you don’t like.

[hoop]

Re: Never in a fight before.

[QUOTE= A large part of it is starting to feel like an exploration of my masculinity which seems to be defined by one’s level of aggressiveness. [/QUOTE]

I too, have never been in a fight. And never once have I questioned my masculinity. Now that I have trained in Krav Maga for 18+ months and have tested through Level 3, I know for sure I never want to be in a fight. And I still do not question my masculinity.

The training is just that…training…a transference of knowledge. It can compliment you but I do not think it can (nor should it) define you.

[don]

Re: Never in a fight before.

What tz and hoop said.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow

“For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.”
– Sun Tzu

When it comes to real physical altercations, there are Way more negative possible outcomes than positive. If you feel like you “need” to test yourself against others, at least do it in a gym/ring…

[crash20]

Re: Never in a fight before.

Thank you all for your relies. I myself am not sure what the real question was. I don’t plan on being in any fights of any kind anywhere if I can help it. I know fighting is never the answer. It is just that several things were going through my mind. I questioned my masculinity because as I stated before I am one of those guys since childhood and still today that gets labeled as girly. Mind you there is nothing wrong with girls or women but I don’t feel or intend to respond in any way like a girl. So when it comes up I get thrown for a loop. So when it happened at work the other day my first thought was Krav Maga and how much I am struggling to move forward and how so many of the guys I have started with have just pushed through. Now I know I am on my own path and I need not look at the progress of others in anyway as a judgment on me, but that day when girly was thrown in my direction it dawned on me that maybe my not being one of the boys in class is what is slowing me down. Maybe my general non-masculine unrecognized by me approach to things is either holding me back or having an effect on the way that the instructors and classmates see me. So that is the first question is it possible that being gay and fairly non sports oriented be holding me back? Then I thought well there are girls in the class and the school they by the way are also excelling better than me. Later on the internet somewhere I saw mention of Krav Maga classes for women. I don’t know if that is just about a comfort level for them or about different techniques for women vs men. That was the second question if there are different classes and techniques for women than me why would that be needed if Krav Maga is not about overpowering someone? Then I took class that day and had the talk with my classmate in the locker room who I had assumed was gay only to find out he was not and had been in lots of fights. This again made me question myself was I somehow less of a man by not having stood up for myself all of those times that I basically ran away from a fight? Another question that I did not ask is will I revert to running and hiding should something come up where I am attacked rather than defending myself? Of course we will never know that one for sure until god forbid something happens? Then it occurred to me that I am looking for more out of Krav Maga then I thought, can one gain a stronger sense of one’s masculinity from training or would that be a false sense? At any rate I know this just like working on my defensive stance I have to find where I am comfortable. Thanks again for all of the thoughtful responses.

[tzrider]

Re: Never in a fight before.

Crash,

Your posts are kind of “The Great Wall Of Text,” so I’ve broken up quotes into sections that seem to contain the questions you’re asking. 😉

quote Crash20:

So that is the first question is it possible that being gay and fairly non sports oriented be holding me back?

Don’t know about the being gay part. I know plenty of masculine gay dudes that would probably do as well as anyone else in Krav. Being non-sports oriented is a likely component. A person who has played a variety of sports will be accustomed to things coming at them (like a thrown ball), the depth perception involved, contact with others (if contact sports), hand-eye coordination, etc. Someone without that experience is behind in those skills and may need to play a bit of catch-up to become comfortable. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it; it just means you’re potentially at a different starting point.

quote Crash20:

Then I thought well there are girls in the class and the school they by the way are also excelling better than me. Later on the internet somewhere I saw mention of Krav Maga classes for women. I don’t know if that is just about a comfort level for them or about different techniques for women vs men. That was the second question if there are different classes and techniques for women than me why would that be needed if Krav Maga is not about overpowering someone?

The school(s) I train at don’t offer women’s only classes, though women are often paired for drills. It’s mainly a matter of pairing people of equivalent size as they learn the skills. Once the skills are learned, they mix everyone up, so students can train with people of different sizes and body types.

Some women are more comfortable training with other women. Personally, I think if women are preparing to defend themselves in the real world, their attacker is unlikely to be another woman, so a certain portion of their training should make them train with men.

I’m sort of at the other end of the spectrum. Though I’m the oldest guy in class at age 52, I’m usually the strongest person there and am still reasonably fast. It’s easy for me to get the idea that I’m better at certain techniques than I really am because of the strength disparity.

A new guy recently started training who is a few inches taller and maybe 50 pounds heavier than I am. He’s also strong as hell. Now I get to see where I need work. 🙂

quote Crash20:

Then I took class that day and had the talk with my classmate in the locker room who I had assumed was gay only to find out he was not and had been in lots of fights. This again made me question myself was I somehow less of a man by not having stood up for myself all of those times that I basically ran away from a fight?

Look, a lot of men never develop the ability to admit they were wrong or apologize for something. They square up and do the monkey dance instead. It takes strength to have the humility to back down and/or look for the common ground when you’re having a disagreement. On the other hand…

quote Crash20:

Another question that I did not ask is will I revert to running and hiding should something come up where I am attacked rather than defending myself? Of course we will never know that one for sure until god forbid something happens?

…maybe you have at times felt that you didn’t have a reasonable choice but to back down for fear of getting your butt kicked. You wouldn’t be the first guy to feel that way. As you progress in Krav you may feel more assured that you do have options when it comes to deciding how to handle situations. Hopefully, you’ll still make logical, legal, productive choices, instead of taking the opportunity to test yourself.

quote Crash20:

Then it occurred to me that I am looking for more out of Krav Maga then I thought, can one gain a stronger sense of one’s masculinity from training or would that be a false sense?

People gain self confidence from martial arts all the time. Is it real or not? If you feel more confident, that’s real. If you think you can take all comers, that’s probably not realistic.

My sons have each trained for years in TKD. They are pretty self confident kids, who don’t have problems with other kids. Few of their friends know they have trained, let alone that our oldest is a 3rd Dan.

I used to assume that the”self confidence” people attributed to martial arts training came from knowing you could defend yourself. With the kids, I see clearly that much of it comes from the fact that as they progress through the ranks, they are expected to play a role in mentoring other kids. This teaches them a lot about helping other people and causes them to have repeated, productive interactions with others. When you think about it, as adults, that’s really where our self confidence comes from, as that’s what we should be doing day to day. The more comfortable we are with it, the more self confident we are in general.

Knowing you can defend yourself is icing on the cake.

[maddogmean]

Re: Never in a fight before.

I would assume that the majority of people I train with have never been in a street fight. If anything a previous street fight will teach you what not to do. There seems to be a lot on your mind when it comes to your training. I’d say…push out all that negativity and refocus on your training. It may be what’s holding you back. You’re more skilled now than you were on day 1. You are building your skillset. It’s a gradual process.

[magpie]

Re: Never in a fight before.

I’m inclined to agree with MDM. Crash, I think the “voices in your head” (and I’m speaking figuratively here) are sabotaging your progress, and I speak from experience.

Many’s the time I find myself getting discouraged because I’m not as young or strong as a lot of the other students. I’ve noticed a few people who actually did their L1 test at the same time as me who are now L3, because they have more time to take more classes. I’m short and am afraid of getting hit, so there’s that too.

When I feel discouraged, I try to focus on perfecting my techniques to the best of my ability. One of my instructors is particularly good at pointing out my bad habits, so I always try to correct those. Every class is another opportunity for me to improve myself.

I also suggest that you push away that negativity and challenge yourself to be the best that YOU can be.

[lions2011]

Re: Never in a fight before.

No reason to ever be in a fight unless you are backed against a wall with no other options. If you win the fight, most likely you will be in jail or sued. If you lose the fight, most likely you will be facing a huge medical bill.
Best to just avoid toxic people and places and your chances will go down 80 percent. Also dont get mad if somebody cuts you off driving or bumps into someplace. Last week some guy just bumped into me and I ignored it. Big deal.

[lions2011]

Re: Never in a fight before.

IF you want to test yourself. Then do some sparring then !!!!Dont be sizing people up. Size is very deceptive. I know this 110 pound kid, who is the best in my Thai class and I would never want to mess with him.

[seraphs-coal]

Re: Never in a fight before.

Here is the thing Crash20, as a younger person I was involved in several fights at different times and the truth is that the feeling afterwards is not euphoria but sadness and distress over what has happened and feeling bad for the person that you fought with even if it was that person that started it. I kid you not, my feeling was like absolute crap and I learnt from it that when your instructor tells you that walking away is the best option, they are not joking. There is no shame in walking away from a fight that you could easilly win. To get into that situation and beat someone up simply shows to you what the extent of your personal character is. There is much to be said for Krav Maga techniques that pin and disable people as opposed to smashing them senseless. Judaism is all about Holiness before G-d. Beating people up is the opposite of that and I feel its the reason why the founder of Krav put other options in the curriculum for situations. Yes sometimes in self defense it is unavoidable. Yet its still regretted, no matter how justified it may have been.

[tacticaltimmy]

Re: Never in a fight before.

I’m going to skip the ethics and philosophy explorations and go for the size and power thing.
Size and power are not the most important thing, but don’t take that to mean that they aren’t important. Compare the size of linebackers in the NFL. If they are generally of similar size and weight +/- 20 pounds, why are some better than others?

Skill, the will to win, and the mind to put together a strategy that brings will and skill together.

Assuming I could dump the knowledge and skill of Krav in to a person’s head Matrix style and they have the will and mind to put it all together, they still have to have a body to carry it out. If two people of equal skill and will meet in conflict, superior physical ability or factors out of the control of either of the two people will determine the outcome of the conflict.

Figure out how it is you think you will employ Krav, and develop your body to match your style.

[crash20]

Re: Never in a fight before.

Thanks for the responses everyone, they were insightful and helpful. I am trying to be less judgmental of myself and making the attempt to enjoy my passage on this earth and the decisions that I have made on this journey. As I think popeye used to say “I am what I am”. I am not a fighter and in hostile, dangerous cases I have been able to remove myself from the situation. I now have come to the understanding that this is a good thing. Further I have also come to the realization that there could come a time when I won’t be able to sidestep my way out of an actual attack. To that end I must congratulate myself on taking the steps that I feel will prepare me for such an event. Most of my friends think I am crazy because in their minds no one would attack a large somewhat in shape black man, based on how often someone decides to get in my face or some patient of mine asks me if I have ever been in a fight I know that being large and black does not protect me. I also understand from class that if attacked chances are the attacker will be larger than me and well prepared and committed to get the results they are after. As far as confidence and masculinity are concerned I do feel more confident from these classes and more connected to my masculinity. I guess I feel more confident because I am doing something that directly answers questions I have had ie what would I do if something happened and also because I am getting a little better at it. The Masculine thing comes about I guess because for me this is the most sports oriented thing I have done and while doing it I find myself in positions and a stance that are unusual for me plus I am pushing myself in a way that I rarely do so I leave class feeling pretty pumped and excited about it. To that end I guess the question of my manhood and what kind of man I am is answered by the fact that I took a little over a year to earn my yellow belt but earn it I did. I worked as much overtime as I could to pay for it. I often arrived at home as late as 11pm from taking classes or finding people to practice with. I have worked hard at maintaining my marriage with all the stress this puts on us when he has dinner alone or I can talk about nothing other than how hard the defense from a headlock from the side is. Now I find myself struggling in the new yellow belt classes, (I know I just got there) and worst of all find that when I take the white and yellow belt classes I am still doing several of the techniques wrong and getting the same corrections and facing a wall of frustration. Never the less the type of man I am is that even after last nights difficult class doing the same old choke from the front with a push and from the rear with a pull and with a push I had trouble doing them with the huge guy I was working with that left me feeling not only frustrated but embarrassed. The fact is that I am going back and will keep training for as long as I can hold up. Thanks for all the helpful words and reading my many walls of text.

[magpie]

Re: Never in a fight before.

I’ve been at L2 for a year now, and plan to test into L3 in a couple of months. I still have to think about what I’m doing when it comes to the chokes with push/pull/against a wall. Why is this? Well, it’s because I don’t practice them every day. I know if I trained and practiced every day, I’d be a lot better, because the more you do something, the better you become at it. How else do any of us learn how to walk, swim, or ride a bike?

For what it’s worth, last week I had an “aha” moment during bag class where, after 18 months of doing KM, my body FINALLY understood how to turn my hip over when doing a round kick. And this came only after I decided to stop trying to kick high and focus on doing the kick correctly, albeit low.

Keep on keepin’ on, Crash. You’re right where you’re supposed to be, and right on time.

[crash20]

Re: Never in a fight before.

Well you are right about that whole practice thing Magpie. I have had very little time to practice the white to yellow belt stuff and I am holding off till I understand the yellow to orange belt stuff because I have been to only a few of those classes and It is easy for me to start practicing something incorrectly and then I have trouble undoing what I learned. So I have not been putting as much into it as I should have. The other problem is that I find it difficult to work with some people, of course this is about me and not them. Some people are really good and fast and I have trouble slowing them down or speeding up. Some people are very awkward and step on you and fall on top of you. Some people are very large like the guy I was working with the other day, I was unable to get my hands around his full neck for the choke and with the choke with the pull from behind he would land on top of me and I found myself falling over or in some cases I needed to take a larger step to compensate for his greater height, etc. So the problem is to learn to make adjustments and not go away feeling like I am starting from scratch. So practice makes perfect yes but how do you prepare for dealing with people who move so differently from you or who are so different in size than you, once and a while it is someone much shorter than me which is also difficult? While we are on it another problem I have is keeping my wrist straight for my punches. I get comments on it all the time. I have heard that push ups on your fist helps but I don’t see any improvement so far. I have heard that practicing with a wall is good practice but so far I am still doing it. Anyone have any ideas on how to get my body to keep the wrist straight while punching? Thanks for your reply I like the statement that I “Keep on keepin’ on, Crash. You’re right where you’re supposed to be, and right on time”.

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