- This topic has 30 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: Nose or jaw?
Weighing in pretty late on this one but here goes:
I teach my partners that the two easiest times to handcuff someone are:
1. When they’re Cooperative, OR
2. When they’re UnconsciousGuys get knocked out by shots to the jaw/chin ALL THE TIME. I can only remember MAYBE a handful of times where I’ve seen someone get knocked out by a punch (elbows/knees, different story) to the nose/face. (e.g. search YouTube for “boxing ko’s”)
IF I had a choice between crushing/breaking a nose or possibly knocking someone out by hitting the chin/jaw, I’d rather go with the possible knock out. Even if the KO doesn’t happen, I’ll probably have a better opening/opportunity for follow up techniques.
Besides, the sight of blood makes me queasy… :razz::D:
Re: Nose or jaw?
There is another side to the “just enough” philosophy. I do agree that you should eleminate the threat quickly and decisively. But, you have to remember that if you continue to beat on a guy when the threat no longer exists, you then become the aggressor and can be charged with battery or aggravated assult. I’ve often read here “it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Although I agree with it to some extent, that mentality could get you in serious trouble. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is a judgement call on how much force you have to use to eliminate the threat. I would like to share an incident envolving my son with you.
He worked at a local country club in Atlanta as the head cook. One of the other cooks there was known to be a trouble maker and everyone knew he carried a knife in his back pocket. Several months ago (more like a year) after work one night some of the guys partied a little. They ended up at a frineds house. This guy, the trouble maker, had too much to drink and when he wanted to drive home, my son took his car keys and would not let him drive. The guy got very mad and hostile towards my son and grabbed him trying to get the keys. My son pushed him away, trying to descalate the situation telling the guy he was too drunk to drive and should sleep it off or call a cab. The guy came at him again throwing a punch. My son punched him back, knocking him backwards. The guy came at my son a third time, this time wrestling my son to the ground. My son, knowing this guy probably had a knife, defended himself and beat the crap out of the guy. The next day the cops showed up at my son’s work place and arrested him. He has been charged with simple battery and is awaiting trial. He lost his job, but found another one right away, thank God. Everyone at my son’s old work place support him and say they will testify that the other guy was a trouble maker and known to carry a knife. My son is pleading self defense. Probelm is, all the witnesses at the time are friends of the other guy. This happened about a year ago and they just now set a court date for this December. My son thinks he will get off – I sure hope so.
Re: Nose or jaw?
Thanks for sharing. One of the reasons why I encourage awareness/common sense/avoidance is because there are many more “bad” things that could happen during/after an altercation than “good”.
Regarding your son’s incident, first let me say that I applaud his good intentions. That being said, as a friend or relative, I would want to know why:
1. he decided to hang out/party with a known troublemaker and all the troublemaker’s friends
2. he decided that keeping the troublemaker’s keys was worth pushing the issue until a fight broke out – and in front of all the troublemaker’s friends
3. he decided not to call the police immediately after the incident happened, especially if the altercation was violent enough that someone ‘got the crap beaten out of them’ – the first person to call is usually going to claim victim status and whoever leaves/runs is often viewed with a prejudiced eye
Some lessons your son probably learned:
If you hang out/party with idiots/criminals, you run the risk of becoming caught up in whatever stupid stuff they might decide to do
Picking and choosing your battles – when is it worth standing your ground, when is it not. If you get into a fight when you’re surrounded by potential BGs, you should expect that they’re not going to fight fair.
Risking danger/hazard to yourself while trying to protect someone else, especially someone who is stupid/criminal, from their own actions.
Leaving a “scene” (and not making any notifications later) where you were significantly involved AND People Know Who You Are, can “look pretty bad”…
ASSuming no other fallout has occurred, and this battery charge/legal issue is the only thing pending, I think your son is very fortunate that:
1. he didn’t get stabbed
2. he didn’t get ratpacked
3. he wasn’t followed home and/or harassed/threatened after
4. he hasn’t been attacked/shot at/targeted since then
all by “people” who probably don’t have much to lose…quote BradM:There is another side to the “just enough” philosophy. I do agree that you should eleminate the threat quickly and decisively. But, you have to remember that if you continue to beat on a guy when the threat no longer exists, you then become the aggressor and can be charged with battery or aggravated assult. I’ve often read here “it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Although I agree with it to some extent, that mentality could get you in serious trouble. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is a judgement call on how much force you have to use to eliminate the threat. I would like to share an incident envolving my son with you.He worked at a local country club in Atlanta as the head cook. One of the other cooks there was known to be a trouble maker and everyone knew he carried a knife in his back pocket. Several months ago (more like a year) after work one night some of the guys partied a little. They ended up at a frineds house. This guy, the trouble maker, had too much to drink and when he wanted to drive home, my son took his car keys and would not let him drive. The guy got very mad and hostile towards my son and grabbed him trying to get the keys. My son pushed him away, trying to descalate the situation telling the guy he was too drunk to drive and should sleep it off or call a cab. The guy came at him again throwing a punch. My son punched him back, knocking him backwards. The guy came at my son a third time, this time wrestling my son to the ground. My son, knowing this guy probably had a knife, defended himself and beat the crap out of the guy. The next day the cops showed up at my son’s work place and arrested him. He has been charged with simple battery and is awaiting trial. He lost his job, but found another one right away, thank God. Everyone at my son’s old work place support him and say they will testify that the other guy was a trouble maker and known to carry a knife. My son is pleading self defense. Probelm is, all the witnesses at the time are friends of the other guy. This happened about a year ago and they just now set a court date for this December. My son thinks he will get off – I sure hope so.
Re: Nose or jaw?
well, if you take it as far as you say, then be prepared for some serious jail time. i’m not talking about “just enough” i’m talking about safely removing yourself from the situation as soon as posiible.
i’m not talking about rabbit punches or laying the guy down gently. in this type of situation you should move with a purpose. punch with a purpose, take him down hard, make him hurt. if you insist on staying there anf fighting with someone, you increase your chances of getting hurt. if you’re with your family, then that presents a different challenge, but that wasn’t mentioned in the original hypothetical.
as far as takedowns are concerened, i’ve taken down alot of guys bigger than me because i’ve had too. i’ve dealt with big typical looking mountainous polynesians, and i’ve taken down guys double my size. couple of weeks ago i had to take down a guy who had seriously assaulted his wife and was less than cooperative, this guy had some size on me, but i was able to do it. i had to move in before back up could arrive. sometimes it happens. that’s the beautiful thing about high speed leveraging moves like an armbar takedown i can execute it at high speed, leave the guy on the ground with a pounding headache, bleeding nose and remain standing. believe me when i have to put my hands on people i’m going to make them hurt and make sure they’re not going to get back up and cheap shot me behind my back.
what you are suggesting sounds like agression based on anger, and that’s never a good thing. hit the guy as hard as you can as many times as it takes to create an opening and get away from the situation as soon as safely possible, don’t try to stay and fight, just cuz you got the jump on him. i remeber a story where a female kickboxer was attacked. becasue of her superior training, reflexes, and timing she dropped the guy (didn’t knock him out) with the first punch, she decided to stay and finish him instead of getting away. that’s when the guy stabbed her multiple times as she tried to go to work on him as you’re suggesting.
believe me nothing good can come of you prolonging your stay to try to hurt the guy.
Re: Nose or jaw?
quote Ryan:…and as far as this goes:What if I’m with my family? What if there’s more than one? Where am I running to? What if he’s 240 and I’m 135 (armbar takedown?)? What if I “pop him” and it creates distance between us or he pulls a weapon? What if I aim for the “general area” and hit his skull (how’s that armbar takedown looking?)? What if he doesn’t fall?
if… then you keep fighting, you don’t need me to tell you that. that space could easily be created if you aim for the jaw and miss. c’mon you guys are making this way more complicated that nit has to be. on the streets these things happen, you have to be able to adapt the game plan as the game changes.
and lastly when i say “pop him”, i mean hit him so it counts. but don’t go into the fight thinking that the one punch knock out is guaranteed, you have to be thinking that it won’t and you’re going to have to keep fighting.
i’ve tried to take guys down before and it didn’t go as planed but it leads into another technique. one time i tried and couldn’t get the right leverage becasue of the spacing and couldn’t get to any of my tools, but he was there and open so i kneed him into the ribs, the second time dropped him, and i was able to take control of him. if we were on the street, i would’ve used that opportunity to make a clean break.
Re: Nose or jaw?
Don,
Thanks for your reply. I totally agree with and appreciate your comments. I had many of the same questions for my son as to why it happened and why he let himself get into that position. He said it was suppose to be a couple guys getting together after work for a couple beers and go home. It was not a planned party bash with a lot of booze around. The other guy did not work that night and showed up already drunk and, according to my son, made an a@@ of himself. My son does regret the poor choice he made that night and wishes he had left or let that guy go on about his business.The reason I posted this incident was to make a point. Some on the forum link have stated (or indicated) to “pop” or take minimum action that would allow them to run or get away. Some others have indicated they would beat the guy down and knock him out. I was just merely using my son’s incident of an example of what can happen if you use too much force for the occasion.
Thanks again for your comments, Don. I appreciate them.
Re: Nose or jaw?
quote Ryan:Jaw…not even much of a debate, in my mind.Folks get hit in the nose in sports all of the time, and keep playing (and that’s not a fight for their lives.) Fighters continue to fight with broken noses…not broken jaws (or unconsciousness.)
The jaw is not fixed, so it’s not as “hard” a target as you may think, and it is considerably larger than the nose. The jaw wraps around a good two-thirds of the head.
If I aim for the chin and I’m high, I get the nose. If I’m low, I get the throat. If you’re high on the nose (or they tuck their chin), you get the forehead.
Fights are ended by making someone unwilling or unable to continue fighting. Punching someone in the nose rarely does that. If I get ONE shot, I’m trying to leave them unconscious, not teary eyed. Just my opinion.
totally agree…been punched in the nose numerous times in boxing (broken 7 or 8 times) and was able to keep fighting.
Hit in the chin with a perfect punch once, and dont remember too much after, until the end of the round (somehow, although stunned pretty bad, I kept fighting on instinct)
Had I taken another shot to the jaw……
Re: Nose or jaw?
Hey Brad,
Re-reading what I wrote, I see that I meant to but somehow neglected to add that I hope everything works out favorably for your son!
You bring up valid points and concerns – I wrote a lengthy reply to expand upon some things with my opinions/experiences but it got erased by a website glitch and I don’t have time to re-write everything… 🙁
Re: Nose or jaw?
Brad, if the person in front of you hasn’t done anything egregious enough (or you don’t believe they are going to) for you to render them unconscious, why are you hitting them?
The best way to render someone unwilling or unable to continue fighting is to leave them unconscious. A “beat down” and a KO aren’t necessarily the same thing. I’m hitting someone (preferably first) with the intent of taking their will or ability to fight from them, or I’m not hitting them. I don’t believe in throwing a “level 5” punch or a “level 10” punch. I can post plenty of examples (many from LEOs) where half measures have resulted in serious injury or death. Again, I’m not talking about a guy taking your parking space.
Re: Nose or jaw?
quote Ryan:Brad, if the person in front of you hasn’t done anything egregious enough (or you don’t believe they are going to) for you to render them unconscious, why are you hitting them?Ryan, I don’t understand our point here. I don’t think I implied I would hit them in a case like you mention.
The best way to render someone unwilling or unable to continue fighting is to leave them unconscious. A “beat down” and a KO aren’t necessarily the same thing. I’m hitting someone (preferably first) with the intent of taking their will or ability to fight from them, or I’m not hitting them. I don’t believe in throwing a “level 5” punch or a “level 10” punch. I can post plenty of examples (many from LEOs) where half measures have resulted in serious injury or death. Again, I’m not talking about a guy taking your parking space.
I agree. Perhaps the phrase “beat down” that I used was out of text. But there are people out there including Krav Mage trained people that do not know when to stop.
As I posted before, here is the reason I posted in the first place ( guess I should have stayed out of it)
“The reason I posted this incident was to make a point. Some on the forum link have stated (or indicated) to “pop” or take minimum action that would allow them to run or get away. Some others have indicated they would beat the guy down and knock him out. I was just merely using my son’s incident of an example of what can happen if you use too much force for the occasion.”
Re: Nose or jaw?
Brad, open dialogue, bro; no worries!
Another thing to consider, as it relates to “But there are people out there including Krav Mage trained people that do not know when to stop”…it may not be a case of knowing when to stop. Under an adrenalized state, particularly one brought on by fear, “stopping” may not be all that easy to do (and actually may go against instinct.)
Re: Nose or jaw?
I used to train with a guy who could counter jabs by leaning back on his back leg and throwing a front leg roundhouse kick to the head. I remember getting hit in the jaw by one and when I opened my eyes, there was a circle of people standing around me. Even though it was a quick front leg kick without full power, it was able to drop me. The thing was that it didn’t hurt, but I definitely didn’t get to decide to fall to the ground. That’s why I recommend the jaw- if you get hit in the nose, you can fight through the pain, but a solid jaw strike does not drop people simply because it hurts.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
