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O.K. survival over fight.
Psyops, if I walk up to you and kick you in the groin and walk away, are you going to survive or fight? I’m no longer a threat, I’m walking away, I don’t want to fight, I just wanted to kick you in the groin. Now if I walk up to you and choke you, for all you know, if you don’t do something about it you are going to die. Now to tell me you are going to get out of it and give me another chance to do it again or pull a knife/gun, I won’t believe you.
Now I guess I shouldn’t have said knockout, I should have said, \”until there is no longer a threat\”. The whole point of asking about the push away during a choke defense was to figure out why they would teach this, when clearly some one is trying to kill you. You have to assume that some one who is trying to kill you has more options and is willing to do more then just choke you in order to kill you.
I guess if a groin shot, elbow and some knees to the face and groin doesn’t drop this person, hell ya, it is time to run.
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quote \”dkst\:O.K. survival over fight.Psyops, if I walk up to you and kick you in the groin and walk away, are you going to survive or fight? I’m no longer a threat, I’m walking away, I don’t want to fight, I just wanted to kick you in the groin. .
Hmmm… I’ve never met Psyops personally but I think if you DID just walk up and kick him in the groin, HE’d be the threat!!
Unless, of course, you put on a funny red wig like this guy…
No one is kicking anyone, if I understand correctly Psyops is an instructor and for that alone deserves respect.
How ever, you do help me make my point, MaskedKat. If Psyops were to come up from behind me and start choking me why would I push him away. My best chance for survival is the surprise when I’m able to release the choke, turn and attack. If I were to do everything and then turn and push, who would I be facing, Psyops a trained fighter. That is why when you train for chokes you best be training to finish off the threat and not pushing away, you never know who you will be up against.
There’s nothing wrong with training methods that include creating space between you and your attacker. Like others have said it all depends on the situation. Generally speaking you should address the immediate danger (in this case the choke), counter attack until the threat is eliminated, create space and assess the situation and react accordingly (ie run, continue combatives, etc.). I think context is always important in training, don’t just teach someone a technique, put it into context. Krav Maga has principles, the situations change and you use force, techniques, etc, that are appropriate to that situation because the priciples stay the same. Hope that made some sense….
I do agree with you, but only after combatives on a choke. My example with the groin kick was to show that you have started a fight. That is why we train to follow up after a groin kick. Trust me, you kick some one in the groin, you just started a fight. You choke some one, you just started a fight. Now if you can create the space to escape that is great, but you better fight like hell to create it.
I think the question here is about training methods. Of course, there might be a situation where the choke release and quick hit to the groin might create enough space for the defender to run. But should we always train for that scenario alone? I don’t think so. dkst is right, a choke is a dangerous attack, I’d rather give too many counters than to few of them. If you always train to simply push the attacker away, that’s what you will do in real life and that could be very dangerous. It’s okay to train like this once in a while, to potentially cover different scenarios, but if that’s the way the defense is ALWAYS being shown, that would present a problem, because that is not the way it is supposed to be done.
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GiantkillerWAIT!!!!!!
I never once suggested that combatives not be used. In fact I was pretty clear that they should be. The initial question was in regards to the victim pushing the attacker away. I say yes this is ok after combatives. If you want to stand there and pound the person into oblivion I say fine. However you need to understand that the longer you stay in the conflict, the greater the chance you have of being injured.
Would I let someone go if they tried to choke me. Yes! After I properly eliminated the threat and attacked the source. I will disengage when it is safe to do so. I do not want to kill anyone. If I have to, I will handle myself appropriately but my goal is not to kill anyone. My goal is to go home safe. This is all I am saying.
O.k., maybe they were doing something different for the day, I still stand by my if you’re getting choked finish the job. Yes, standing around afterwards will probably get hurt, leave once it is safe to leave.
So basically, this school was teaching something strange. Thank you all for the input.
Finish the job, doesn’t mean kill anyone. Lets all hope we never have to, no one wins in that situation.
\”I still stand by my if you’re getting choked finish the job.\”
What does that mean? Every situation will be different. Finishing the job is surviving the encounter. If I have to only create a few feet of space to reach safe haven or a higher use of force, why wouldn’t I? Why have a 100 pound accountant staying to \”finish the job\” against a larger, more seasoned assailant when they could escape? You still didn’t address multiples or third parties, and no one said \”only push\” or \”don’t do combatives\”.
BTW, for those who say, \”That’s not Krav Maga\”, I say you don’t understand Krav Maga. It’s a principle-based system, which means you’ll need to do what’s called for in the moment, not follow some syllogistic doctrine that doesn’t allow for variables. Also, watch the beginning of the KM DVDs, and tell me how often you see Marni, Darren, Eyal, and others disengage with a push.
I think we are all acknowledging that there will be variables, but the question is, did that school teach the choke defense to be always done in that manner, or was it part of a specific scenario drill? If it’s a specific scenario or shown as a possible alternative depending on the circumstances, that’s okay, but if, for some reason, they understand the counters to always consist of a push rather than strong punches or elbows, something is wrong, because that is not the way the technique should generally be practiced.
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Giantkiller\”I think we are all acknowledging that there will be variables\”
Really?
\”No where, is a push understandable in a defense against choke.\”
\”A choke always warrents a knock out, broken arm, sixteen groin shots, what ever it takes to make sure he isn’t going to come back at you. To be taught anything less isn’t KM.\”
Are they choking with NO combatives? I find that hard to believe. No simultaneous attack; nothing?
\”Are they choking with NO combatives? I find that hard to believe. No simultaneous attack; nothing?\”
Ryan, At my first Krav school we were taught combatives in all defenses including the chokes. When I moved and continued Krav at a new school, combatives were really not taught or emphized. The front choke for example: They taught the two handed pluck with simultaneous kick to the groin and that was it. Front choke with single pluck and palm heal to the face, that was it. During my first class at the new school, I asked my training partner \”Don’t they do combatives here?\” He said \”What are you talking about.\” I thought to my self – Hmmmm – that’s strange. I continued classes there for a couple months. Nothing changed. Also, in every class, if we did do self defense stuff, it was always the same old level-1 stuff. I had recently past my level-3 test and wanted to learn something new. I finally gave up and quit.
Combatives should always be emphasized in my opinion, especially if you are dealing with new students, who might still be a bit timid about throwing punches. You can talk about special circumstances later, but, in the beginning, you should always practice throwing plenty of counters.
I’m not even sure the push makes much sense for the choke from the back. So, you pluck the hands, deliver the groin strike, then turn towards the attacker, in fact moving closer to him, only to then use the push to once again make distance? You get closer to make distance, without throwing a single punch? That would be weird. If you have time to turn, you might as well throw a hammerfist or elbow as you are turning. If you have time for a push, you might as well use a punch instead and then make distance off that counter. If the groin strike suffices, then maybe it’s best to start running right away, without turning toward the attacker first, because he could easily grab your throat again from that position, especially if you do nothing to hurt him.
Choke from the front, hmm, one kick and then it’s assumed that the threat will be neutralized? No other counters, nor movement to run away? What prevents him from just grabbing your throat again? I don’t know, it just doesn’t seem like a good way to train.
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GiantkillerChoke, no combatives with a push, maybe alright to teach to young children ,re- school situations bullying, but combatives are the heart and soul of krav maga,anyone who has taken any of Darren’s classes can attest to that. One class I remember was supposed to be gun ,we spent 50 minutes on straight punches, was still a cool class though. Mark
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