Realistic Knife Defence

[whitedragon101]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote biglou502:

The context and scenario you present bring up a number of important questions and considerations. I have a couple of thoughts on this, although I’m not sure they are Krav Maga, or even technique, specific.

First, I’m a firm believer in training for the odds; I will train myself most often to deal with the most likely situations and scenarios. We don’t live in a Kung Fu movie (much to my occasional dismay), and it is my belief that I’m am much more likely to encounter a naive attacker than I am a well-trained knife fighter, so I am going to train accordingly. So, to your point, I would say that the large slashing or thrusting moves are going to be the most common types of attacks, especially as initial attacks.

I rather hope you are right as this does indeed make defence more straight forward. I have trained a good many of these types of defences so this would be the best case scenario. However, I am concerned that against frenzied attacks very quick simple defences are needed to stand the best chance. I am still in the process of really trying to test the existing knife defences (of the styles I mentioned before) under pressure, so I have no conclusions as yet.

quote biglou502:

As an example, I believe for a level 1 student, the 360 defense is more important for self defense than inside defenses are. Why? In my experience you are more likely to encounter a naive attacker throwing a big ugly haymaker than you are well-trained fighter who throws a great straight punch. Both defense are important, but if I’m having to prioritize. . .

I’m not sure if 360 defence has a specific meaning in Krav Maga. But if you mean a 360 degree awareness, then yes that seems like a good thing to train.

quote biglou502:

Second, I’m not entirely convinced that many of the fluid complex attacks that I think you are envisioning are that likely to occur in a real-life situation, even for a well-trained knife fighter. When we are put under stress in a violent situation, most people are reduced to caveman when it comes to physical prowess and agility. While not always true, assuming all that beautiful and fluid form and complex tactical decision making is not something I’m comfortable with (which is why I train in a system that doesn’t require either). An accessible and well-documented example of this is with Filipino stick fighters. In a vacuum, stick fighters have a beautiful system of both attacks and defenses that are awe-inspiring in their precision, speed, and complexity. But, any time I’ve ever seen even the best trained in these system get put in the pressure cooker and have to bring these skills to bear, it looks like two cavemen with sticks whacking each other with wild abandon. Again, these are my observations, but it brings into question how well these techniques hold up in high stress situations.

I agree with that definitely. It is very hard to be fluid when under pressure. Especially when someone pulls a knife and you think you are going to die. Thats one of the main things I want to try to do in the knife defences I am putting together: reduce the thought required to 1, maybe 2 moves. Less to go wrong, less to forget and it helps to focus on 1 thing to make it as fast as possible. I have a couple so far which I really like which are just 1 move.

quote biglou502:

Lastly, it is never my intention to stand there in an altercation and exchange blows with an armed assailant. Whether it becomes reality or not, after the initial attack, it is my intention to become such an overwhelming and violent force that they will not have the opportunity to disengage from me to start all the antics you described. I see many of the knife defenses in Krav Maga as a means of dealing with that initial attack. Once that attack is made, our job is then to defend and provide a solid enough counter attack that we take their minds off of their training and get them back on their heels and into caveman mode. As an initial attack, there are only so many ways that a person can thrust, hack, slash, chop, etc. It is my opinion that KM has done a pretty god job of covering those bases.

This is the basis of what I am doing trying to end up with: a collection of very simple quick ways of avoiding the initial stab (by whatever method works) and then striking for all you’re worth.

quote biglou502:

I apologize if none of this seems like an answer. I guess it may be more of a presentation of some alternative philosophies in thinking about your concerns.

-Jesse

No thats cool I’m grateful you took the time to write a detailed answer.

The main reason I am doing this is that in my school we learn knife defences and they do the job for the large attacks. But occasionally, for fun someone comes in slashing, stabbing(and pulling back) fast just to be difficult. Inevitably the defender receives a number of hits. When I say, “what if that happens for real?” The answer is always jokingly ‘bleed.’ This is because the general consensus in our school (and many martial artists I have spoken to) is against a serious attack you have little chance.

What I’m trying to do is trying to increase the chances in the worst case scenario to something higher than 1/10.

[combative-edge]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote leejam99:

have you seen real stick fighting or real sparring with full speed? they don’t move like the people in this demo… its more of a gross movement of big swings. google dog brothers as see some of their videos and see how people work when its for real. You will rarely see if any type of flowing trapping movement like they do in these demos.

If you know what you are looking for you will see these “drills” come out in sparring. Marc Denny (Crafty Dog) actually talks about that a lot. As a matter of fact the founding members of the Dog Brothers all come from a heavy Pekiti Tirsia background.

Pekiti Tirsia is mainly a blade system and also has a highly developed empty hand system as well. (Filipino Dumpag)

Rob Walker
http://www.ptk-pa.com

[combative-edge]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

PooDigger, if you are in San Antonio check out Gabe Martinez. [email protected]

Rob Walker
http://www.ptk-pa.com

[clfmak]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote biglou502:

Second, I’m not entirely convinced that many of the fluid complex attacks that I think you are envisioning are that likely to occur in a real-life situation, even for a well-trained knife fighter. When we are put under stress in a violent situation, most people are reduced to caveman when it comes to physical prowess and agility. While not always true, assuming all that beautiful and fluid form and complex tactical decision making is not something I’m comfortable with (which is why I train in a system that doesn’t require either). An accessible and well-documented example of this is with Filipino stick fighters. In a vacuum, stick fighters have a beautiful system of both attacks and defenses that are awe-inspiring in their precision, speed, and complexity. But, any time I’ve ever seen even the best trained in these system get put in the pressure cooker and have to bring these skills to bear, it looks like two cavemen with sticks whacking each other with wild abandon. Again, these are my observations, but it brings into question how well these techniques hold up in high stress situations.

If you watch the Dog Brothers DVDs, they are very good at breaking down sequences of action to show how the training is being manifested. They note that a lot of people see them as cavemen with sticks whacking each other, and their counterpoint is that without the “fighter’s eye”, you might not know what you’re looking at, especially when you’re looking for something that looks like a martial arts movie. Things like triangular footwork, deceptiveness, level change, entering etc are shown by some of the better fighters (I would also add that some fights are exactly two people feverishly whacking each other with sticks).

Regarding the first part- I believe that if you can successfully defend against a well trained attack, a wild one shouldn’t be too difficult, and my experience has helped with this. Also some of the knife fighting tactics that can get around defenses aren’t exactly complex, fluid skills. The pakal tactics from Shivworks are simple and intuitive- you stab someone, and if something gets in the way (a forearm usually), you pull back and cut the arm, setting you up to try again. It’s a simple tactic that works well against all kinds of people I’ve tried it with.

[whitedragon101]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote PooDigger:

From what my brother has shown me, Kali stick fighting translates very well with knife fighting, most importantly, the foot work. They also train with swords and spears, though I don’t really find that very applicable on the streets of the United States. The knife fighting looks fun. A bit complicated compared to KM but still fun.

-c

Yes Kali is definitely one of the things I’m looking at. We train basic Kali in our WC class to understand how to use and defend against sticks. Some of the people in the class are Kali guys cross training.

Kali is definitely useful but I’m just saying what works for a machete doesn’t necessarily work in the same way for a knife, it may require changes or even a completely different movement because of the differing mechanics. Rather like a block for a punch or a kick; sure sometimes the same block could be used for both but it may need to be adapted to suit the purpose.

Thanks for your input, its great to get peoples views and avoid the usual martial arts rivalry that tends to stifle these kind of discussions 🙂
I think simply stepping past the ‘this style is better than that style’ means suddenly martial arts becomes a banquet of skills to draw on 🙂 .

[whitedragon101]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote CLFMak:

you pull back and cut the arm, setting you up to try again. It’s a simple tactic that works well against all kinds of people I’ve tried it with.

Too true. Damn hard to grab an arm when every time you move yours forward it gets sliced to pieces.

One of the stabbing defences I developed came from exactly this move. They stab and pull back so fast that by the time my arm was there they are already pulling back with all their force cutting my arms. So to deal with that I tried this:

Leaping forward straight into the guy (slight angle to avoid knife, like a boxers slip and counter) and performing a very simple arm trapping move. If he pulls the knife back you are already there with it. If he doesn’t pull back even better the impact of the trapping move is so fierce it becomes an instant take down. The key to getting it working at full speed was not to move forward then turn to face the arm, but simply to leap forward and trap the arm as you move taking them down backwards. Meant the whole defence was 1 move.

ps
(These are still works in progress as I want to do all the what ifs, and try them out on different people to see how they fare. But its great when something works full speed 🙂 ).

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote whitedragon101:

I’m not sure if 360 defence has a specific meaning in Krav Maga. But if you mean a 360 degree awareness, then yes that seems like a good thing to train.

‘360 defence’ is one of the essential basic modules in KM that provides a foundation for various threats against the person – if you train in KM the concept & its practical usefulness become clear..

Here’s a pretty good explanation:
http://www.selfdefenseresource.com/krav-maga/articles/360-degree-defense.php

And a ‘Human Weapon’ depiction for a basic outline:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwS1JCP0uTQ

Its meant to be defensive & offensive at the same time.

In stories I’ve heard from people who prevailed in the ‘real World’ using KM against a knife attack – its almost universally been the ‘basic’ 360 defence which saved them: they see the flash of movement and instinctively block..

If one wants to delve into realistic knife defenses, as far as I know there is no other system on Earth that is more ‘realistic’ than KM. One thing you have to consider is that in KM you are also tapping into a deep and extensive collective human knowledge and experience ‘database’ set up and informed by intelligent, highly-trained and motivated persons who constantly receive feedback from those in ‘the field’ , particularly military and law enforcement, who have used the KM techniques for real – providing a constant testing & evaluation of the system and individual techniques. In this way, KM is also dynamically evolving and improving with occasional slight adjustments to certain techniques.

In the group I train with we do all sorts of knife drills ranging from attacks to static ‘standing at the ATM’ or drag-you-in-the-bushes type threats.

Underhand, overhand, straight stabs, slashing, close, distance – attacker running, ambush, stabbed from behind, the side, eyes closed, one on one, in a crowd. There’s 100% surprise attacks where the instructor secretly hands out a knife or knives during some other drill.

There’s ‘static’ threats – someone holding a knife in front, behind, the side, up high, on your neck etc.

We’ll do occasional ‘reality check’ drills where the participants are on the ground & have to grapple, wrestle the knife away – usually everyone ‘dies’ after a few evolutions of this drill, including advanced students. Some lessons can be derived from this. Another one is remaining in place while trying to defend – it becomes clear the longer you stand there, the lower your survival chances become, and the downhill slide is very rapid.

There are knife control/disarm techniques too for more advanced students but generally the focus is on effectively blocking, countering & escape than control/disarm.

One of the key things in KM is you get inside the attacker’s ‘OODA Loop’ by instantly switching from a defensive to an offensive mode, thus short-circuiting their initiative and plan of action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

In a knife attack scenario the window of opportunity might be very small, maybe a split second – whereas in an escalating verbal scenario perhaps the window will be very large.

My advice is go and train in KM for at least a few months & see what you make of the knife defenses!

[combative-edge]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

I don’t what Pekiti group these guys are from but the video explains pretty well what your question is. I think you will see some similarities to the KM 360 defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN7CydJqGRk

And back to the Stick Sparring…. A lot of the techniques you see in Pekiti are meant to be with a blade. When stick sparring those techniques do not work because a quick slash to the arm with a stick really doesn’t do much….. Replace the stick with the blade and that slash to the hand or arm could be the end of the fight.

If you spar with the stick and treat it as if it were a blade, then you will see more technique applied because you can’t afford to get hit once anywhere. You become a little less brave and not willing to eat 1 strike to deliver 2.

Take care

Rob Walker
http://www.ptk-pa.com

[biglou502]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

Chocolate Soldier provides some great points on KM’s approach to knife defenses and defenses in general. I think the mistake that most people make when they critique these sorts of defenses is that they fail to look at the defense holistically. One of the things that make all/most of KMs defenses so elegant and effective is that the defense never solely relies on the block/redirection/whatever to achieve success. Instead, it always couples the defensive action with a simultaneous counter attack of some sort.

From my perspective, the concern being voiced in this thread can be applied to nearly any series of attacks, although the stakes are much higher in this context. I could easily take a snapshot of a single 360 defense and then raise concerns about the fact that it wouldn’t help me much if the attacker was swinging wildly with both hands from all different angles. Which is true, the human body is not fast enough to deal with repeated attacks indefinitely. The part many people miss is that each and every time you’re sending a defense with one hand, you’re also attempting to lodge their teeth into the back of their throats with the other hand. The idea, which I alluded to earlier, is that it is my job as part of the defense to try to interrupt the flurry of attacks (regardless of the weapon they are using) by attacking right back.

A perfect, and much safer illustration of this can be seen in a simple sparring session. As an attacker, continue to move in with some series or combination of attacks, you will likely begin to notice that your ability to maintain that flurry or combination is severely diminished if they begin to attack back, instead of just taking a defensive posture. Taking a shot to the face in the middle of an attack, I find, is generally a very good interrupter.

Now if we extrapolate that out by putting a knife in someones hand; if I simply rely on defensive motions to survive and attack, eventually the defense will fail, but if I’m sending out big strike with my defense, I’m much more likely interrupt my attack and greatly increase my chances of survival.

At the end of the day, you have to learn and rely on principles and techniques that you trust, and if the KM approach is not for you, it’s not for you. It is certainly not my intention to pit two systems against one another in term of knife defenses (or attacks); I think that’s counterproductive. It is my assertion though that although we can get into a “well, if you do this, then I would just do that” conversation when thinking about how these defenses fall short, I highly doubt that even the most intuitive follow-up maneuver is going to be top of mind if you have a fist or elbow collapsing a portion of your face as a result of your first attack. But that’s just the opinion of a guy who has never been in a knife fight, so take it for what its worth.

[whitedragon101]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote biglou502:

Chocolate Soldier provides some great points on KM’s approach to knife defenses and defenses in general. I think the mistake that most people make when they critique these sorts of defenses is that they fail to look at the defense holistically. One of the things that make all/most of KMs defenses so elegant and effective is that the defense never solely relies on the block/redirection/whatever to achieve success. Instead, it always couples the defensive action with a simultaneous counter attack of some sort.

From my perspective, the concern being voiced in this thread can be applied to nearly any series of attacks, although the stakes are much higher in this context. I could easily take a snapshot of a single 360 defense and then raise concerns about the fact that it wouldn’t help me much if the attacker was swinging wildly with both hands from all different angles. Which is true, the human body is not fast enough to deal with repeated attacks indefinitely. The part many people miss is that each and every time you’re sending a defense with one hand, you’re also attempting to lodge their teeth into the back of their throats with the other hand. The idea, which I alluded to earlier, is that it is my job as part of the defense to try to interrupt the flurry of attacks (regardless of the weapon they are using) by attacking right back.

A perfect, and much safer illustration of this can be seen in a simple sparring session. As an attacker, continue to move in with some series or combination of attacks, you will likely begin to notice that your ability to maintain that flurry or combination is severely diminished if they begin to attack back, instead of just taking a defensive posture. Taking a shot to the face in the middle of an attack, I find, is generally a very good interrupter.

Now if we extrapolate that out by putting a knife in someones hand; if I simply rely on defensive motions to survive and attack, eventually the defense will fail, but if I’m sending out big strike with my defense, I’m much more likely interrupt my attack and greatly increase my chances of survival.

At the end of the day, you have to learn and rely on principles and techniques that you trust, and if the KM approach is not for you, it’s not for you. It is certainly not my intention to pit two systems against one another in term of knife defenses (or attacks); I think that’s counterproductive. It is my assertion though that although we can get into a “well, if you do this, then I would just do that” conversation when thinking about how these defenses fall short, I highly doubt that even the most intuitive follow-up maneuver is going to be top of mind if you have a fist or elbow collapsing a portion of your face as a result of your first attack. But that’s just the opinion of a guy who has never been in a knife fight, so take it for what its worth.

I agree a person eating a punch is rather distracted 🙂 . This is actually my background of how I train now and my starting point. Quick block to hand then counter for all your worth.

The only reason I hadn’t considered this to be the Krav Maga way is my only insight thus far has been from the 5 DVD set of Moni Isaac Commando Krav Maga. In these DVDs all techniques are based on moving and trapping not counter striking.

I would love to train with Krav Maga people but I’m in Bournemouth UK and don’t think there is anyone in my area. Maybe a private lesson up in London might be the only way to see it in person.

[kior]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote whitedragon101:

The only reason I hadn’t considered this to be the Krav Maga way is my only insight thus far has been from the 5 DVD set of Moni Isaac Commando Krav Maga. In these DVDs all techniques are based on moving and trapping not counter striking.

Just worth mentioning then that CKM is not in any way representative of actual krav maga. If you search the forum you’ll find plenty of info but the jist is that Moni’s someone who’s traded on the krav maga name to sell his own brand of modified judo/jiujitsu, this isn’t a system that is based on krav maga principles nor is it used in any official capacity in the Israeli armed forces.

I train in London, you can arrange private lessons with instructors here certainly, it’d be cheaper if you go in with a friend or two though. Of course regular training is the way to get good but you could probably cover the basic knife defenses in a few lessons to the point where you could practice them with friends. It’s also possible to go on a training trip to Israel regardless of your background in KM, something I’ve been meaning to do for quite a while.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

quote whitedragon101:

The only reason I hadn’t considered this to be the Krav Maga way is my only insight thus far has been from the 5 DVD set of Moni Isaac Commando Krav Maga. In these DVDs all techniques are based on moving and trapping not counter striking.

I would love to train with Krav Maga people but I’m in Bournemouth UK and don’t think there is anyone in my area. Maybe a private lesson up in London might be the only way to see it in person.

Bingo!

Some essential IMO KM books are
from Darren Levine & John Whitman: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Krav-Maga-Self-defense-Techniques/dp/1569755736/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258390224&sr=8-1

This book is GREAT! Well laid out, clear explanations, excellent pictures.

Eyal Yanilov & Imi Sde-Or:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Krav-Maga-Yourself-Against-Assault/dp/1583940081/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258390673&sr=1-2

Essential reading – the lay out is a bit odd with some more crucial things located near the end of the book.

And this DVD set is excellent with Darren Levine (KMWW) & Eyal Yanilov (IKMF):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Krav-Maga-DVD-Box-Vol-1-5/dp/B001F6HUCE

Private lessons might be good to explore especially if you aren’t able to attend regular training sessions & were mainly interested in exploring KM knife defences – so you could ask to concentrate on that area.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

Btw – just wanted to make it clear for anyone who might be perusing this thread: when I mention KM knife defense drills, training etc – we are using rubber, plastic & wooden training ‘knives’ without sharp edges – in KM for obvious safety reasons REAL edged weapons are not used in training…. just thought I’d point that out.

[whitedragon101]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

Thanks for the advice. Thats very misleading indeed, on Moni Isaac’s DVDs he has many endorsements by people labeled as Israeli military, some even hand to hand instructors (or purported to be such).

I have been messaged by a guy that says he has a school in Southampton which is closer than London to Bournemouth. Also that they may set up a school in Bournemouth in the New Year. Sounds hopeful 🙂

What organisation gives the recognised seal of approval to instructors that I should look out for?

——-

..and thanks Chocolate soldier for your continued help in this thread 🙂 . I will check out those books/ DVDs.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: Realistic Knife Defence

Yr welcome,

I think any of the main International KM organisations such as IKMF and KMWW have stringent qualification procedures for their instructors. For example the basic IKMF instructor’s course consists of 180 hrs of intensive instruction and training – I would imagine its something similar with KMWW. Compare that to CKM where one can qualify as an instructor after a 3 day course: http://www.commandokravmaga.com/html/intensive_faq.html

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