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This story brings up some issues with military groundfighting. First of all
quote :Wrapped in a ground fight, Prosser could not pull out his service pistol strapped on his right leg, or get to his knife on his left, because the terroristówho turned out to be a serious terroristóhad grabbed Prosser’s helmet and pulled it over his eyes and twisted it.First of all, the helmet changed the nature of the fight, as heavy gear is wont to do. More importantly, the terrorist seemed to be controlling at the time and had the soldier blinded- seems like that terrorist could have gotten to the pistol or knife. I do believe that the Army combatives people also teach the use of the helmet as a weapon- that would take out the enemy from a mounted position- like in old UFCs.
quote :Prosser had beaten the terrorist in the head three times with his fist and was gripping his throat, choking him. But Prosser’s gloves were slippery with blood so he couldn’t hold on well.Blood changes the dynamic of grappling as well.
quote :At the same time, the terrorist was trying to bite Prosser’s wrist, but instead he bit onto the face of Prosser’s watch. (Prosser wears his watch with the face turned inward.)An example of how dirty tactics can be applied against a groundfighter. I mean, under combat stress and all, think of how devastiting that would have been without the watch there.
This is not to second guess the guy, its just what I got out of it. Bottom line- he didn’t ever hesitate, and dominated the situation. But it does illuminate how groundfighting can differ in a warzone compared to the mat. This would be a textbook \”why soldiers shouldn’t groundfight story\” if there was, like, broken rebar or glass on the floor.
I disagree, it would be great to get CSM Prosser on here and tell us why he threw the weapon down and tackled the threat. For example does he usually carry his weapon in a chest sling and dropped it thinking it would be hanging by his side? Did he go in to control the threat’s weapon and trip on debris (could look like a tackle)? All we do know is he went in, confronted the threat with aggression and intent and ultimately won.
also dirty tactics go both ways… terrorist bit his wrist… he smashed terrorist face into concrete.
I don’t think it should be a textbook story as to why soldiers shouldn’t groundfight. rebar/glass/furnture/cannisters/blood etc can play a role whether groundfighting, stand-up, or clinchfighting.
The soldier tackled because that is what he was taught to do in Army Combatives course. They drill into you over and over take your opponent to the ground and control him untill your buddies get there. In addition, he probably played football and it came naturally to him.
ammunition reply
My only reply as to why the soldier tackled his assailant is that is what he thought to do at that time. If I was in that situation I can’t say I would have done anything different. Also, I have also known people to use that exact move without any bjj training at all. I am just glad that our guy prevailed.
As far as the ammunition question….The military uses full-metal jacketed ammo, not hollow-points like we do in law enforcement. I don’t know why that is but they do shy away from the effective hollow points. Full metel jackets have a tendancy to over penetrate unless they do hit something solid. I am not saying hollow points won’t overpenetrate or are the cure-all but I think they would greatly help to cause more decisive and incapacitation injuries. NYPD didn’t use hollow points up until a few years ago. Since the trasition has been made I have not heard of any instance of a person being shot 15-20 times before they are incapacitated and NYPD still uses the 9mm platform. The same goes for the 5.56/.223 used in the m-16/m4 platform.
I am pleased to hear that our military is at least looking into other than previously-held standards for h2h. There are some quality things that our troops can learn from bjj as well as other arts. I am also glad to see the individual soldiers themselves seeking quality h2h training from other sources on their own time/dime. I wish more in the LE community would do the same thing. Fortunately the good word is getting out about Krav and we seeing more interest in it from both military and LE.
Everyone…take care, train hard and BE SAFE!
If I recall correctly, JHP ammunition is forbidden in war by the Geneva Convention, that’s why so many militaries use the green/soft tip bullets now. If you got hit by a 7.62 JHP round and it didn’t hit your armor, the damage would be incredibly brutal. Think back to civil war era where heads, arms, and legs would be just ripped away due to the minie balls.
I mentioned the glass/rebar thing almost tongue in cheek- its one of the things anti-grappling people like to talk about- and it has some legitemacy, but not enough to completely discourage grappling (maybe even to promote it). The dirty tactics working both ways- exactly what I meant- its not all as formulaic as it is in a controlled setting.
The whole \”until your buddies get there\” never made sense to me. Its a big gamble that your buddies will ever show up, or that they will show up first \”before HIS buddies show up\”. And strategically, do you want your troops to stop what they’re doing to hold a single enemy in place for what could be a long time? But I do believe that the Army manual teaches chokes and locks and such, so they are prepared to take out the enemy.
The Marines don’t use anymore the LINE stuff. They have a program called MCMAP or Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. And they have a system of skill levels or rankings, each with a prerequisite or requirements. And it is mandatory for all soldiers regardless of MOS or their line of work. As far as mixed martial arts goes, veteran UFC fighter Ken Shamrock, himself a former Marine recruit (was discharged because of a past injury and the Corps couldn’t afford to keep him), volunteered some of his time to teach Marines how to upgrade or maximize their MCAP techniques as well as counsel on physical conditioning.
All I know is what I was taught in army combatives.
1) The program was based off Gracie BJJ with a college wrestling coach brought in to tweak it.
2) Take your opponent to the ground, wrap him up, and hold him till your buddies get there
3) When in the rear mount with your opponent face down: Its more efficient to stick your hand under your opponents head to grab his right arm and and \”wrench\” him around to face you and therefore defend himself than to throw several elbow strikes to the back of the head.
4) Dont do the ground choke break learned in Krav because if he has your uniform wrapped in his knuckles you could break his fingers ( ok….this one is the dumbest one ever taught to me, to be explained later)
5) When taking your opponent to the ground you rush forward with your forearms in front of you touching together in order to protect your face, grab your opponent around the chest, slide down his body to his legs for the take down. (needless to say this leave you open to hooks to the body and head)These are things I was taught by a CERTIFIED ARMY COMBATIVES COURSE INSTRUCTOR. This is what they teach to all army infantry, or was as of a year ago. To explain some things..I did have questions of the instructors…said questions will be numbered according to the above numbering system followed by the combatives course instructors.
1) Gracie BJJ and Wrestling is good…how about boxing or elbows or knees? A: We dont teach striking.
2) What if you dont have any buddies in the area or what if he has more buddies? A: That doesnt happen. (WTF? THAT DOESNT HAPPEN?? Drugs bad m’kay)
3) Why dont I just elbow him to the back of the head? A: Because you dont have control of the fight. (Umm im sitting on this guys back…I think I have control at this point)
4) When doing the mounted choke on the front I learned their way of doing it which involved a complicated easy to forget set of grab here and here with these hands (while your being choked) then push here and pull here to do this. I showed them the Krav break taught to me in Lvl 2 class. The first instructor (not the main one) I showed it to said: \”Wow..that works alot better\”, the main instructor said: You could break a guys fingers if you do that. (Ok wartime environment, I am on the ground with a guy choking me…do I care about his fingers?)
5) How do you defend against the hook from here? A: You charge in so fast he cant hook you.This was my experience at the ARMY COMBATIVES COURSE. I learned nothing useful. They train the grunts to take to the ground and subdue not maim or kill. This course may be useful for cops (somewhere like canada) because it is about subdual not what combat is supposed to be, kill kill kill. I wouldnt risk my life on what I was taught at army combatives course, but most of those guys are brainwashed because they just dont know that its crap.
This is my humble opinion shared as my experiences to bring light on this subject of why the soldier went to the ground. As I have said before the army does all this training without full gear.
I think this got talked about on the old forum.
The solider without a gun is considered dead. Next guy in line step up. Sorry to say it that way. 😥
They rightfully spend time learning to shot guns and weapons and drive jeeps and tanks, not on hand to hand.
So in previous discussion, about Army using BJJ, it was decided that the BJJ was more of a moral builder and tuffing up excersise and not to important in combat. For this Role, BJJ is great. I think in light of the current role as security forces, and as in the future this will increase both within the USA and without, maybe they should re-address this.
The comment about breakng fingers refers to YOU, training in the ARMY, not the bad guy. me thinks. Not good to have you battalion strength down because of broken fingers dealing with chokes that happen once every 3 battles…
I talked with a Marine a few months ago, and they had recieved a special coarse about close quarters combat with and without weapons. He agreed with my observation that a US solider should not ever be without his weapon. The only time one would need the special training moves is in special circumstances. Surpirzed, ambushed, or in No Fire situations. This Marine mentioned places in IRAQ where the crowds are all around and reaching in to touch or grab you, but you can not shot. We also talked about house to house fighting, people behind doors and stuff.
In the article, I get the feeling that they wanted prisnors alive. Maybe that is why Posser went for the tackle? 8)
He shot the guy 4 times…dont think they cared if they got prisoners or not.
Personally I think every Soldier should get hand to hand training for the \”just in case scenario\”. I agree no soldier should be without his weapon. But every soldier should know how to defend himself without one too. That was what Krav Maga was developed for right? A quick way to teach lots of people (Isreali Military) how to defend themselves in close quarters combat.
When you teach only ground work as a H2H combatives course you are giving your soldiers a tool that can be used…but without striking and training with full gear your risking their lives IF the situation does arise that they have to fight.
Ever try to do a guard position with a canteen in your back? Or how about a pack full of gear? Or even with body armor? Every try and do a buck and roll with this gear on? It doesnt work and shouldnt be taught for morale or other purposes if it doesnt. If it doesnt work my comrades in arms are in danger. And that sir, IS UNACCEPTABLE.
Hey I agree it is unacceptable too!!! but the military does some things we may not understand, or think makes much sense, for an individual.
It boils down to the question, \”when will a solider be without a weapon and without buddies to back him up\”. The answer is that it is unacceptable that this situation even happens to begin with. So they work towards not letting it happen.
Anytime spent in H to H is time spent away from weapons and team work and communications. So now the chances on needing H to H go up. But H to H is almost useless on todays battlefield. So you have increased the chances of being in the situation where you can use a skill that, although better, is not fit to the task. The military focus elsewhere to prevent the need for H to H.
Also, the better they are at H to H, the more often they might get into fights on R and R. I imagine a statistic somewhere about soliders getting hurt at bars and such, vs use in Combat….anyway, BJJ then solves many of these problems. If they do fight they are not breaking fingers on skulls Punching eachother and other drunks, and they can train on their own time and get fitness plus not hurt each other. BJJ injurys seem to be the kind you can work around, compaired to broken knuckles or cracked ribs.
Just some thoughts, i am no expert.
Last, they always want prisoners!! Inteligence is key!! A guy they where just trying to kill, if he is now the last guy, is prime candidate for being an information source…..but I think Prosser just went for the most available option, the tackle, instead of getting shot trying to draw his pistol, as was said earlier.
The Army combatives program used the same strategy as the development of Russian sambo and Chinese sanshou. They wanted a form of hand to hand combat where you could go all out without injuring each other (you couldn’t do that with the old program- knees to groin, chops to throat, stabbing). This is why they discourage techniques that may break fingers, etc. This does a few things-
1. As many have said, its a morale booster and makes you tougher.
2. You learn what its like to struggle with a truly resisting opponent, which is definitely valid during short term training. Kind of like that wacky pugil stick fighting, but more realistic.I think the new and old methods have their merits. They could have taught all this jujutsu stuff and still include the chin jab. I’d also conjecture that the best hand to hand program you could have is doing pure agression training, then give each soldier some light knucks (or one of those old WW1 trench knives).
Re:
[quote=\”prekarious1\”]The M4 has the same drawback as the M16. The 5.56 round is small and fast, and has a tungsten steel penetrator rod in the center. These aspects give it great penetration but minimal knock down power. Unless the rounds hit bone or any other solid object, they have a tendency to keep moving. Being small and fast the person being shot may not even know that he was hit if his adrenaline is flowing. There have been many after action reports complaining of this. When is comes to weapons, penetration is good, but knock down power gets the job done./quote] I know the U.S. military was looking for a light, accurate high-velocity round when they chose the 5.56mm but I don’t understand why they didn’t opt for a 257cal.,270cal., or 6.5mm cartridge. I have a 6.5mm given to me by my grandfather which I occasionally take shooting(I have no desire to kill any animal when I can go to the grocery store nor do I feel any life is less significant than a human life) and this gun does some serious damage and is one of the most accurate firearms I’ve ever shot. It seems to hit almost as hard as my Dad’s 308cal. It also has very little recoil in comparrison. I don’t know a lot about firearms but that little 6.5 hits hard and fast. My grandfather says he used to drop Elk at 400 yards with it!!!
I think Krav Ron got jipped as far as training goes.
I have a good friend who is a MAC instructor, I trained with him less than a week ago. What did I see at the gym on post? I saw guys doing MT based strikes and BJJ. I asked about it and investigated the site. Muay Thai strikes, BJJ, and FMA based weapons stuff from the Dog Brothers… not bad.
I think you got a bad instructor Krav Ron.
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