June 25, 2007 at 11:45 pm #30037
Hey, slow day today, so let’s jumpstart this thing….
I was wondering what people thought about using the option of running (also known as the Nike defense) in a self-defense situation.
Of course, if the attacker is unarmed, running as soon as it’s a safe thing to do would always be a viable option. But what about situations in which he has a weapon? For example, would running away ever be a possibility if the attacker threatens you with a gun?
I remember reading a BB magazine article a long time ago in which it was suggested to train yourself to turn and run as soon as you see a person holding a gun. It was argued that this action would surprise the attacker, who would expect you to get scared and freeze in place at the sight of the weapon. Supposedly, he would be hesitant to shoot after you if you ran, as this would make too much noise and draw too much attention and it would be simpler for him to just wait for another victim to approach. Also, guns are inaccurate and there would be a good chance that he would miss you if he shot at you while you were trying to get away.
Sounds risky, of course, and if the gunman is close enough, probably better to do a KM style defense before attempting to run. But what about extreme situations, in which you can not reach the weapon? He might be standing behind a car, pointing the gun at you and ordering you inside in an apparent attempt to kidnap you. Wouldn’t you be better off running? Or what if he is standing about ten feet away, telling you to get on your knees? Would complying with his demands be riskier than simply trying to get away? It may be hard for him to hit you in those situations and if he ran while shooting the gun it would make it even harder for him to keep aim and perhaps not be worth the trouble.
Also, there may be situations in which the assailant isn’t alone, but has one or more persons with him. They may or may not be armed. If two guys have guns, it would be very difficult to disarm and fight them both, so, if you are getting the feeling complying with their demands wouldn’t stop them from shooting you, should you try to fight or would running give you a slightly better chance? What if they both have knives instead of guns?
Or the attacker may be a tall and heavyset, carrying a knife or a gun. Let’s say he weighs 300 pounds but is overweight, you weigh 100 but you are athletic. Trying to hurt him with punches and kicks may be hard and risky, but you should easily be able to outrun him. If he has a knife, that may be the best option. If he has a gun, maybe one could still do the redirection and punch if the gun is within reach, but if it’s not possible to take the weapon and it looks like it might turn into a struggle you’re going to lose, maybe running would be a risk worth taking?
Also, I was wondering, is there any way of predicting the likely trajectory of an inaccurately fired bullet? For example, if an inexperienced person shoots a gun and misses the target, does it happen more often than not that the gun will be pushed up due to the kickback, meaning that the shot will likely go up at an angle instead of straight forward? From my limited experience at the shooting range, this is what seems to happen a lot. So if the bullet went up at an angle it may be more likely to miss me, than if it swayed to the right or left, or downwards. Is there any way of predicting which way an inaccurate shot might go on average?
There, we are back…. 😀
GiantkillerJune 26, 2007 at 3:01 am #54350unstpabl1Member
Though this doesn’t get to the heart of the gun thing, this is an interview by Urijah Farber a MMA champ about a bar fight against multiples trying to kill him in Bali. Its intersting because of the honesty and this guy can fight. Running paid an important part in the outcome. I may have posted this before but its worth the 9 minutes to watch. Just a note it starts out as a fight interview then about 2 minutes in he tells his story. Hope you all enjoyJune 26, 2007 at 3:50 am #54351freelancerMember
Any of you ever go to the range? I only go every few months but at any sort of distance it’s hard to hit a moving target. Add low light/ obstacles or any kind of cover, then you odds would increase.
Predicting errant shots? I don’t think so. Most inexperienced shooters will not compensate for movement (leading a target) or great distances (raising the aim point) but I would think that all you would be thinking about is moveing fast and for safety.
Hell ya I’m running….that is if I don’t shoot back. 😉June 26, 2007 at 12:05 pm #54354kmcatMember
Re: Running away as a self-defense optionquote \”Giant Killer\:
They say to never get into a car with an attacker, doing anything to not get into the car. This may be easier said than done.
I’ve always thought that if you do get forced into a car the first thing you should be doing is attempting to crash the car. If the attacker has a gun on you and is making you drive, this is easy. If he is driving and holding a gun on you, grab the wheel. I’ll take my chances in a crash vs. taken somewhere and shot.
Running away from a man with a gun seems like it would be a very good idea.June 26, 2007 at 12:38 pm #54355maskedkatMember
You bet I’m running if someone orders me into a car. I’d rather chance being shot in the back than being subjected to hours of rape and torture before being shot.
I’ve heard if you do run, try to run in a zigzag pattern to be more difficult to hit. I think I’d just be focused on making some distance between me and the gun.June 26, 2007 at 1:54 pm #54356karmaokMember
Running is my first defense if the opportunity is there. Remember the old saying \”When two tigers fight one dies, one gets hurt\”. KM is my next option if say my family is with me or my running would endanger someone else. I wonder about the situation when the bad guy is a bit too far away with his weapon or friends and you have your wife or kid with you. I suppose verbal skills and destiny would be the rule of the day.June 26, 2007 at 4:24 pm #54360johnwhitmanMember
Running should ALWAYS be an option in your overall arsenal of tactics. I agree completely with the concept that most people cannot hit a target with a handgun, and that there are occasions when running away from the handgun might be a decent tactic.
But whether it’s a handgun, knife, or open-handed fight, we recommend that you simply consider running as a tactic, not as an attitude. I.e., you don’t want \”willingness to retreat\” to replace your \”do anything to survive\” attitude. There are any number of situations (against a firearm or otherwise) where running isn’t your first best option. Consider: where are you running to? Is safety close at hand? What (who!) are you leaving behind? Where is the exit relative to the attacker? You need to have as much ability to commit to the fight as you have willingness to flee the situation.
Against a firearm, remember that someone who has decided to shoot will often compensate for poor quality of aim with high quantity of rounds discharged. Those rounds have to pass through some point in space, and the chances that you are occupying some of that space increase as he puts more rounds down range. You may be better off dealing with him where he is right now.
In the end, it’s just important to remember that fighting is not about ego, it’s about safety. Be willing to do EVERYTHING a reasonable person in your situation would deem necessary to remain safe.June 26, 2007 at 9:20 pm #54363
Very good points. I was definitely thinking of it as a tactic, not an attitude. In that way, many things would have to be taken into consideration, just as with any other tactic employed.
Environment does make a difference. I like the idea of running if someone ordered me to get into a car in the city, but what about on the side of the road to Vegas, where I might be stranded when my car is broken down? Not really anywhere to run to in the middle of the desert. Or I could be on a hiking trail, far from any major roads, although in that case there may still be trees or vegetation to hide behind, in which case it would become a cat and mouse game (just like in the movies).
It may even make a difference what country you are in. In Europe or Israel, most buildings are made out of stone or bricks, so they would provide good cover. In the United States, building walls are made out of wood and the bullets could go right through.
Considering all of these variables, it may not be a bad thing to imagine some possible scenarios beforehand and decide in which cases running might become a viable tactic.
GiantkillerJune 26, 2007 at 10:22 pm #54364krav8541Member
Another good reason not to be fat…June 26, 2007 at 11:12 pm #54365
Hey, unstpabl, I was just trying to load the video. Unfortunately, it only loaded up to 5 minutes 26 seconds and the sound is off as well. So, I only got to the part where he runs back into the bar, chased by 12 armed guys. What happened then? Sounds pretty scary… 🙁
GiantkillerJune 27, 2007 at 1:59 am #54366unstpabl1Member
Re:quote \”Giant Killer\:
The gist of it is Farber, pretty much runned and gunned thru the town with them chasing him. He jumped in a cab and the caught up with him and was fighting inside the cab the driver then drove them away.
You wonder waht would’ve happened if he didn’t have the skills and the conditioning of a MMA fighter. The key was that he was moving and fighting and did not go to the ground.
The running on the gun thing is a popular subject of discussion. There were a couple threads on another board about guys who ran and got shot in the back. I agree with everthing thats been said. Johns post was great. I like when he gets involved.
The truth is we’re hard wired to do one of 2 things when confronted, which is either Fight Or Flight. I think the key in this would be not to panic in what ever you do. I think the Krav scenario stuff trains you to make those decisions under stress. The Fight or Flight DNA is the reasonwe have this discusion so much. I think that if you do run, you need a distraction, cause the perp expects you to either comply or run. You have no idea how far he will go. Trying to do the oposite of what he ex[pects may give you an edge.
I grew up in a neighborhood with invisable border lines. Italians lived on one side, blacks on another, Puerto Ricans on another, etc, etc. Negotiating the way to school could be intersting at times. One day walking the railroad tracks home, I felt movement behind some cars on my right but behind me a bit. They were sneaking but trying to catch up to me. I stopped to make sure my shoes were tied and as I did I picked up 2 handfuls of rocks. One guy came out from behind the traincar behind me, while I could see the other guys feet trying to sneak around to cut off my escape. The 1st guy yelled for me to come to him. He had a big butcher knife or a small machette. I took 2 steps toward him and nailed him with a handul of rocks. I turned and ran and didn’t stop running until I was home 3 miles away.
In hindsight, I didn’t do what either expected and the trap couldn’t be set. By feigning complience the other one eased up and didn’t hurry to complete cutting me off. The first guy got nailed with a faceful of rocks
I don’t know how a 4’11\” 95lb freshman knew what to do, but I remember being very clear on what had to be done and nobody was going to catch me that day. I think there is a survival mechanism built in, but if you don’t use it you lose it. KravRBSD training hones itJune 27, 2007 at 9:39 pm #54369
4’11” 95 pounds?? 😯 You were smaller than me once?? 😀
Good story. You acted pretty Krav-like, sensing the danger, then having the state of mind to pick up an improvised weapon without the bad guys noticing.
Looks like simply running in that situation would have been hard, they might have succeeded in cutting you off. But walking toward the one guy, surprising him with the rocks, then getting past, was a good way to open up a passage for you to get away.
Sometimes in class, we work on fighting multiple attackers and it’s always emphasized to stay out of the middle, so they can’t surround you. Looks like you did just that, you’re a natural! 😀
As for getting shot in the back if you run from a gun, that’s a big danger of course. I guess it just depends on the situation. If he is close enough for you to do a KM defense, it would probably be safer to do this. But if he’s 15-20 feet away and orders you to get into the trunk of a car or something, maybe running would be a risk worth taking.
In seems that most people, if confronted with a gun or other weapon, would probably freeze, at least for a moment, confused, or in shock of seeing the weapon pointed at them. So, the case was made in that BB article I read, that if you were to train yourself to run immediately, as soon as you see that weapon, it would likely stump the attacker, because he would not expect you to react in that way (or at least not this quickly).
Not sure if that’s the case. If he is close, I’d probably much prefer the KM defense, but in certain situations, running may become an option.
Of course, bullets can travel far, so they are still a danger, even if the assailant is standing dozens of feet away from you. But if he has a knife and you see it from a bit of a distance, running could work, especially if he seems to be a heavyset guy and you are small and quick. However, it would still be better to distract him first, if possible, the way you did with the rocks. 😈 I also remember Darren showing some autopsy photos of a woman trying to run away from a guy with a knife and there were numerous stabs in the back of her neck. 🙁 So, if you do run, better watch your back.
Looks like running may not work in all situations, but I just thought it’s something to keep in mind. In KM we usually learn to be aggressive, attack, attack, attack, which is the best thing to do in most cases, however, sometimes, there may be another type of escape right in front of you and you may overlook it, if you are only thinking about the possibility of attacking.
GiantkillerJuly 3, 2007 at 11:01 pm #54398jaerooMember
If it’s safe and practical to do so, run away. But there are certain circumstances that make running away impractical such as slower, infirm loved ones that are with you, faster attacker, etc. If he’s got a gun and points at me from a distance and I am alone and unarmed, I’d take my chances running away but in a zigzag motion to make shooting a little difficult. Getting shot escaping is much better than getting shot doing nothing. Another scenario. I am alone and I just beat the hell out of the attacker enough to stun him. itmakes sense to run away and then report to the cops than beat him some more to the point of unconciousness and not reporting the incident.July 3, 2007 at 11:16 pm #54399
So, should you always report a self-defense incident? Obviously, if the guy is unconscious or badly hurt this would make sense. But what if I defend, give some good counters, enough to get away, but I can tell the guy is not seriously injured? Is it necessary (or even the law?) to report such an incident, or could I just move on and forget about it?
GiantkillerJuly 3, 2007 at 11:20 pm #54401kmcatMember
Re: Dependsquote \”jaeroo\:
There is less paper work that way.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.