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I have been studying the Beslan School Massacre in Russia and have learned some about the Russain Spetznaz and their police \”Alpha\” teams, which I think are similiar to our SWAT teams.
The fact that this type of incident happened in any country is a sad and scary reality. The really scary part is that intel from other countries has shown that the terrorists would love nothing more than to do something similiar here.
I’ve included a link here that will get you to the first 2 parts of of a 3 part series on Russian H2H and a little about the Beslan massacre. The author is John Giduck who was present for this incident and has lived and trained with Russian military/police for years.
It seems that the Russians have had to become anti-terrorism experts the same as our Israeli friends have. In fact, some of what John describes as an appropriate for defeating terrorists is similiar to what I’ve read regarding Israeli responses.
The link is http://www.swatdigest.com/hand_to_handptII.html
I am curious to what others think of this article and what our response should be in this type of incident.
Also to those in the Law Enforcement I am curious if your department has an active shooter/terrorist response policy or have provided training for such an event. Any LE wanting to discuss this issue with some amount of privacy can email me at [email protected] . I know some are not comfortable with discussing this type of issue in an open and or non LE controlled forum and that is why I have given an email address to contact me.
John Giduck is giving a seminar in Northern Ohio in December in which he will discuss the Beslan Massacre and what American LE should do to prepare for such an incident. One of our officers, who also happens to be out DT and firearms instructor as well as one of my Krav training partners will be attending this seminar. Hopefully as the result of such training and awareness our department will start developing a policy for such an occurence.I have a couple of concerns with this.
One, having been born and raised in Former Soviet Union, travelled back often and fairly active in the community, I find it odd that no one, NOT ONE single person has ever heard of Systema. Knowing a little bit about the Cossaks, I also find it hard to believe that they developed a martial art, much less gave it a name. They did know how to ride horses, were handy with a sabre and known to pogrom a shtetl or a thousand. Developing a system of fighting? I just don’t know. However, just because I don’t know doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. It might very well be legit.Two, I would hesitate at calling the current Russian army experts at anything. I would also hesitate to compare them to the IDF. If you examine the details of Beslan massacre and the Moscow theatre seige you will find a pattern of incompetence at every single level in the armed services and law enforcement. From selling their weapons to the terrorists, allowing them in the city for a fee, not preparing adequately for the medical events, not having an organized plan, and finally LETTING THE TERRORISTS ESCAPE in Beslan!!!! They caught ONE guy, many of the other terrorists are unaccounted for. Not to mention that many of the terrorists in Beslan were mercenary former Russian Army spetznaz. Again, I doubt you will find IDF soliders fighting for Hamas. So please, if you are an American LEO do NOT learn from the Russians. Then again may be their mistakes could teach you what not to do.
Emil, Thankyou for your reply.
It is my understanding that most, if not all, of the terrorists but 1 were killed at scene. This includes several who tried to escape, acting as medics.
It is also my understanding that the perpetrators were young Chechnyan rebels, most of whom had no formal military experience.
I am more interested in their \”Alpha\” units, which I believe are similiar to our SWAT units, but with much more military-type training.
I think it’s unfortunate for the Russian citizens that they are major problems with corrucption and incompetence in their military and police. At the same time I do believe that there are professional members of their police/military who care about the safety of their citizens and that terrorism is just as much a concern for them as it is everyone else.
You brought up some excellent points as far as mistakes that were made by the Russian military/police leadership. Discussing these mistakes and what we can do differently to prepare ourselves for such an event is exactly why I started this thread. Also, I was hoping that someone would bring up the theatre incident, which you did.
I have read where the average American police sniper carries 40 rounds of ammo on a deployment. At an incident such as Beslan this means an entry team would have about 4-6 minutes of sniper cover before the snipers run dry. The firefight at Beslan lasted almost 10 hours. This is one of may things that the LE world should be looking at.
I agree that you would not find IDF soldiers fighting for Hamas. I have the utmost respect for the IDF and the Israeli citizens. Their ferverent and undying loyalty to the survival of their people and land against overwhelming odds on a daily basis is something that I admire. This is why I try to learn from their accomplishments. I also believe there are lessons to be learned form other sources as well.
Thankyou once again for your input and sharing your experiences.
I’ve seen some videos of Russian cops (some weird paramilitary deal with camo on) doing all sorts of intersting training- building human ladders and ramps, and having displays of synchronized braking-bottles-on-your-head. They seem to have a pretty rough approach to apprehending people- repeatedly punching you in the face with one hand and holding up a warrant with the other.
I knew a guy who trained in the russian martial arts AND was from the Soviet Union, an he was totally legit. His martial art background was so mixed (aikido, tai chi, sambo, judo) that it was hard to say anything about his systema or its effectiveness (but overall he was good at striking, throwing, weapons, push hands, you name it). He talked about when he did Russian martial arts, and I asked if that was systema, and he sort of said yes, but I guess they don’t really call it that over there. And sambo is considered more of a sport than a martial art. He said that pretty much everyone was involed in some sort of illegal activity to get by- that might have been just where he was from.Russian laws different than ours……every time they read them a right they can hit them in the face to make sure they understand it. 😆 Actually police brutality is a common thing over there. Personally I think our own police and military has become too PC and are afraid to use the force they should.
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quote \”Emil\:I have a couple of concerns with this.
One, having been born and raised in Former Soviet Union, travelled back often and fairly active in the community, I find it odd that no one, NOT ONE single person has ever heard of Systema. Knowing a little bit about the Cossaks, I also find it hard to believe that they developed a martial art, much less gave it a name. They did know how to ride horses, were handy with a sabre and known to pogrom a shtetl or a thousand. Developing a system of fighting? I just don’t know. However, just because I don’t know doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. It might very well be legit.Two, I would hesitate at calling the current Russian army experts at anything. I would also hesitate to compare them to the IDF. If you examine the details of Beslan massacre and the Moscow theatre seige you will find a pattern of incompetence at every single level in the armed services and law enforcement. From selling their weapons to the terrorists, allowing them in the city for a fee, not preparing adequately for the medical events, not having an organized plan, and finally LETTING THE TERRORISTS ESCAPE in Beslan!!!! They caught ONE guy, many of the other terrorists are unaccounted for. Not to mention that many of the terrorists in Beslan were mercenary former Russian Army spetznaz. Again, I doubt you will find IDF soliders fighting for Hamas. So please, if you are an American LEO do NOT learn from the Russians. Then again may be their mistakes could teach you what not to do.
Yes, indeed. Russia’s answer to any crisis is like a bull in a china shop.
KravRon, I think there is a HUGE difference between not being politically correct and an effective LEO. They are not brutal enforcing the law, they are brutal because they are either trying to beat a confession out of someone or trying to \”encourage\” the family to put up the cash. I don’t think they keep statistics for solving crimes, but I am certain their numbers of apprehending the right person are dismal. I think your average US street cop has had more training and has a better understanding of the law than most Russian cops. May be if they spent more time on studying law enforcement and less on buidling human ladders and doing acrobatics they would get somewhere.
Our police too PC? Maybe its just here in San Diego, but I’m constantly hearing stories about the cops shooting people when it warranted pepper spray or baton strikes- that was one aspect I liked about that article- it addressed the issue of how cops with little training wil pull their firearm when its unwarranted. They could use some better training in the use of other combatives…
Unless they’re dealing with the guy that just stole my car stereo, amp, sub, backpack, registration and sparring gear 👿When I say too PC I am talking about….
Cops being afraid to do their job for fear of being accused of racial profiling.
Cops who use force on someone are only doing it because of racial reasons…because we all know that all cops are biggots..and that hyped up druggy (regardless of race) who is hallucinating would have surrendered peacefully if the cop would have just asked him right.
Im not bashing cops, dont get me wrong. We all know there are good cops and bad cops. I just think that cops hands tend to be tied a little too tight.
As far as the military goes…well I think we shoulda nuked the afghan training camps the day that AQ had the USS Cole bombed. (Not a big nuke…but a small one just to say \”Hello\”) I think UBL woulda thought twice about the twin towers mission.
Its not just cops or the military though…I personally (the following is my opinion and thus should not be taken as fact) think that this entire country is becoming too PC (wussies) whatever you want to call it.
Example: The outcry to bring the troops home from Iraq is rediculous…why? lets look at 2 years in the US, how many people have been killed in the US be it gang activity, crime related, or just plain stupidity. Garuntee its over 2k people. But people are shocked and amazed that we have lost that much in 2 years! Hell there are probably more people dying from violent crime in NY and LA then in Iraq…but they dont care.
ok…im off the pulpit again.
Sometimes I just wish we could go back to older times where if someone cheated you it was legal to take them out back and beat them with a hose.
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