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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/mall.stabbings/index.html
Did you guys see this? This stuff blows my mind. Situational awareness is one thing, but to have someone just randomly slash your back while you are on the escalator is another.
Any thoughts?
This thing has been all over the news here in DC.
To be randomly stabbed in the back is pretty much like getting hit by a meteor. It happens, and there is very little you can do about it. There might or might not be things you can do after the initial contact with the knife, but to be honest, you are probably going to be in shock and not even realize what is happening to you until you are poked multiple times.
Frankly, even if you know its coming in a knife fight you are probably going to get cut up some regardless of your defenses and combatives, but the key is to minimize the damage. Kind of hard to do if you donít know itís coming. Good thing there was an FBI agent there with his weapon on him. This gives credence to the concealed weapons folks here.
I spent my last twelve hour night desk tour here in DC last night. I read through most of the previous posts from the genesis of this forum and find this latest attack applies to many of the previously discussed issues.
I have a few questions to pose to the peanut gallery.
If you saw this happening, would you join in or would you just call 9-11?
It may not have helped if you were stabbed, but this lends serious credence for a law abiding citizen to having a CCL/CWL so that they could intervene.
If you didnít have a weapon, what would you do?
Standard Krav doctrine, what would you have with you to use against a knife? (An improvised weapon can be extremely useful against a knife.)
Those that have talked at length on here of carrying knives, or ìbike wrenchesî or ninja death-sticks, etc etc, would that weapon be effective against a knife? Frankly, blades bother me more than firearms. Could just be that my knife techniques need more finishing than my gun disarming ones.
Does anyone else train with knife to knife fights? (I almost never carry my duty firearm off duty; I almost ALWAYS carry a knife)
Just some food for thought on the subjectÖ..
I am sure some of you will be happy I am off the long night desk tours so I will not have quite so much time to respond to every post here but I want to say thanks for all the great info and food for thought that keeps me awake on the gravesÖ.
JC
As the defender in this case, you probably would indeed get stabbed multiple times before you would even know what is going on. Once you do and the stabbing still continues, maybe get your arms up to protect your face and neck, then turn giving an elbow or hammerfist, hopefully hurting the assailant. Once you have turned give more counter attacks, control the knife if you can or try to make distance as soon as you can.
As a bystander, in the shoe section, maybe one could have picked up something, a high heel shoe maybe or a chair if there was one, anything strong and heavy to use as a shield and/or to hit the attacker with. If there wasn’t anything to pick up in the store and you had a \”ninja wrench\” or something similar that could certainly have been used. If there weren’t any potential weapons in the store, you could have tried to kick first (to keep your upper body out of range of the knife). Give a few strong kicks, hopefully they would weaken the attacker, then maybe rush in and punch to the face and control and maybe even take the knife.
On the escalator this would have been a lot tougher, since it was probably crowded and it would have been hard to even get to the victim and attacker. I wonder if it would have been possible to push the attacker over the railing, but that could have resulted in severe injury to the attacker and then the question is always whether or not that would have been justified. Same with drawing your own knife. If a potential rescuer would have stabbbed the attacker in the throat and the attacker would have died, would that have resulted in the rescuer’s arrest?
That makes me wonder: I know we have specific third party protection exercises for guns and knife threats, but do we have specific exercises for third party knife attacks? Or should you pretty much just kick or beat the attacker? Should you try and control and take away the knife (the victim might still be lying on the ground, injured, so if you want to protect that person, you might not be able to just run away without disarming the attacker or at least incapacitating him). Is there any ‘official’ Krav Maga defense for such a situation?
I have not seen any \”official\” krav techniques to deal with the situation but I am sure there are some out there.
I am quite concerned about knives/stabbing weapons at work and specifically hostage situations. (i.e., threats at knife point vs. a slasher)
Think about the Krav techniques you already know about a knife and pistol, combine them, and there are some really good things you can do.
Of course, beating them is always an option too if they are in a strait out attack. If you hurt someone trying to kill another person, I doubt there is a jury in the world that would convict you on that, but then, it may depend on where you areÖ.
I would be willing to believe the attacker was ‘projecting’ intent. Everyone needs to learn the ability to pickup on this.
Here’s an example: You \”feel\” someone staring at you. You turn to look and find that they are…
There’s an article on Alliance martial arts website about the use of the satchel/briefcase and the knife, mimicking the sword and buckler of yore. This seemed like a strech to show how past weapons are practical today. But anyway, a briefcase wouldn’t be at all out of place in such a situation. Very intuitive blocks in close quarters are possible with a briefcase.
Wrapping a jacket around the arm might work, innocently wrapping it as if to hold it in your arms, but in a random attack this is less likely. This is also reminescent of the cloak and dagger or cape and rapier from back in the day (or west side story).
Lots of makeshift weapons are practical here- pens, canes, keys umbrellas. There’s flexible weapons available against knives- Comtech offers videos on the use of flexible weapons like scarves, bandanas, etc. Dan Inosanto has talked about the use of the shoes on the hands against a knife attack, but this is also not likely in a surprise attack- more likely for a 9/11 type situation. For any weapon, improvised or conventional, situational awareness is key. If it wasn’t already in your hand at the beginning of attack, it would take too much time to draw it, especially in an elevator.Also, if you drw a knife, you would most likely be cut because of the close range. To stand a chance against being cut or stabbed, you need to be near kicking range, or you won’t have the reaction time to deal with the attacks. At least thats how I’ve been schooled. As I understand it, there’s some good extreme close quarters knife systems, and the reaction time thing may be negated by extreme tactile sensitivity. By visual sensitivity alone, you can’t survive at close quarters against a knife.
Does krav maga expand on the use and understanding of knive fighting in later classes or is it mainly for defense against an attack?
I think it would be advantageous to understand the mechanics of a knife fighter.
Duels don’t happen much outside of high school. Squaring off is virtually non-existant. A \”knife-fighter\” will never let you see the knife. You’ll be sliced and diced before you know the attack is on, I’m afraid.
Remember, self protection and self defense are not the same. Situational awareness reigns supreme. If you are \”defending\”, you’re pre-contact tactics have failed. You need to train the pre-contact phases, and make sure your training includes the behavioral and psychological dynamics of a violent or potentially violent encounter. It is also important that your H2H skills tie-in with your weapon skills/defenses.
\”\”A \”knife-fighter\” will never let you see the knife.\”\” – Correct!
Hmm…someone posted a video earlier or maybe I saw it on real TV, but a guy got out of a car that a cop had pulled over and as he stepped out of the car went with the overhead stabbing motion with a knife. The cop reacted with a #1 block followed up by a strike. Afterwards the cop said he didnt see the knife, reacted to the motion, and afterward found out the guy was wielding a knife. The beauty of Krav is that it teaches you to react to the motion not the actual weapon. Mainly because your block against an overhead punch and your block against an overhead knife stab are the same thing.
You must keep in mind though, not all knife wielders are trained in knife fighting. An average thug or person who pulls a knife will usually use it to threaten first, attack second.
Situational awareness is the key to self defense. But in cases such as this one, you can be completely situationally aware, but it only takes one crazy woman on an escalator to slash you in public.
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