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Fights can end up on the ground, that’s why we train for that scenario.
This is particularly true against an opponent who is ‘not trained’ who after a couple of good shots will probably grab you and try to wrestle you to the ground.
In this respect, it’s occured to me that Krav doesn’t seem to have many defences against this kind of attack. Yes, we do a lot of choke and hug defences and even drill them with the attacker pushing us at the same time as chocking / hugging but there doesn’t seem to be much if anything which specifically addresses someone trying to wrestle you or shoot for your legs.
Am I missing something???
Re: Takedown Defence
It’s called the “sprawl”…. I kind of think of it as an agressive squat thrust.
Bas shows it here at the 0:45 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmfmwUc3p8
Here’s the Human Weapon explaination:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYKrhfFo8Qo
My instructors throw this “fun” move into warmup and heavy-bag drills. However, you don’t officially learn to use it untill L2 and Fight class.
My early addition of the “Complete Krav Maga” book doesn’t mention the sprawl, but I believe the newer additions do.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Krav-Maga-Self-Defense-Techniques/dp/1569755736
Re: Takedown Defence
quote jaspthecat:…but there doesn’t seem to be much if anything which specifically addresses someone trying to wrestle you or shoot for your legs.Am I missing something???
It is addressed on pages 160 & 161 in the Krav Maga for Beginners book.
Re: Takedown Defence
Carpe- good answer and right on.
However the Bas Rutten MMA Sytem is not part of the KM curriculum. Oneness and I have been advocating for more take-down defenses for several years and I believe that Kelly and several other are working hard to revise the ground material. I am sure several defenses will be added to it that are inline with the principles of KM.
Re: Takedown Defence
I was taught to sprawl and hammer fist up so you can knock out the attacker. I think this will work against someone who doesn’t train or doesn’t do a lot of takedowns. We were doing take downs with some BJJ practioners and they took me down at will. I tried to sprawl but they were to quick. According to them they will take you down if you are in arms length. So in the fight you have to keep moving and stay off the ground unless you are comfortable going there.
Re: Takedown Defence
But don’t forget… If a bad-guy takes you down -and if it’s a fight for your life, you’re going to poke eyes, grab throats, rip ears off and break fingers -Right? -Right!
Aside from that, L3 teaches a good handful of ground work that’s not hard to learn and seems pretty useful and effective to me.
Re: Takedown Defence
The sprawl only deals with one area of takedown eg double leg takedown, toe pick.
It’s not going to help you if the attacker has his arms under your armpits and is trying to wrestle. Or has one of your arms locked and is forcing your head down ie all the kinds of desparate moves that an agressor is going to try and make.
Yes, you can guage and rip but the guys bodyweight is on you and he is committed, then he’s going to bring you to the ground at which point his other mates are going to wade in and use your head as a football.
I’ve not seen much given to takedown defence either in my class or the book I have which is written by Darren Levine (the name of which escapes me).
I’m going to have chat to my instructor about this next class, see what he suggests.
Re: Takedown Defence
Very true a fight for your life and I will be bitting etc on the ground. But if the attacker knows how to fight on the ground he’ll wrap your up so your hands cant be used and he’ll be chest to chest in a side mount. Again how many attackers are BJJ guys or KM guys? Most are punks who will wrestle you to the ground since they have no idea how to fight. As my instructor has taught me, stick and move. Go for the groin, throat, kick the knees, end the fight as soon as possible. As Jaspthecat mentioned, the sprawl deals with the double and BJJ guys they have different takedowns not to mention throws as well. I always say we know what we know but our heart and determination is going to decide whether or not we survive.
Re: Takedown Defence
quote jaspthecat:It’s not going to help you if the attacker has his arms under your armpits and is trying to wrestle.That sounds like the bear hug defenses, actually….
Re: Takedown Defence
quote spartankrav:That sounds like the bear hug defenses, actually….close, I was referring to an underhook type movement. The Bear Hug defence may be of some assistance here but as per my earlier post, if they have got some weight behind them then they are going to get you over.
I think Krav in these circumstances needs to provide guidance on footwork and balance in these situations.
Re: Takedown Defence
Well Oneness wrote and lengthy post about this that he read to me last night… then he went to post it and the forum had timed out. Needless to say, he was less than happy. I am hoping he tries to write it up and post it again. I think its exactly what you guys are looking for. So put the pressure on him… 🙂
Re: Takedown Defence
It is surprising to read that some of you correlate takedowns [defense] with BJJ guys. If you want the best takedown defenses, think wrestlers and judokas. They spend more time learning/drilling takedown defenses than anybody else.
Hence, why I add this to the table, as taught by arguably the best american wrestler of the current era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVGCnkjyu70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDdDjco462YDefenses become more specialized and more technical depending on the competition modality, but most wrestling, judo, MMA contests adhere to this. It’s not exactly self-defense, but it gets close.
To annotate, KM is in the process of adding in sprawls into the system. Personally, I would like to see a little more emphasis placed on the use of grips and over/unders in earlier levels, but L2 & L3 self-defense (and even some of the black belt tackles) briefly address over[hook]/under[hook]s.
Ideally, your KM facility should offer a some sort of takedown/groundfighting supplement program. If not, this humble black belt suggests doing a little crosstraining.
I, too, anticipate Oneness’ addition. Always replies with good knowledge.
Re: Takedown Defence
La Rev, thanks for the plug!
I had a great post the other day but the dumb time limit on the forum killed it. :soapbox:
I will retype it in the next day or so. My post explained takedown defenses in a good beginning student and krav maga manner.
Re: Takedown Defence
quote Oneness:La Rev, thanks for the plug!I had a great post the other day but the dumb time limit on the forum killed it. :soapbox:
I will retype it in the next day or so. My post explained takedown defenses in a good beginning student and krav maga manner.
Get it done, we wait in earnest.;):
Re: Takedown Defence
Ok, sorry its taken me a few days, but the new job is taking all my time!
Hope this makes sense, it does in my brain. :Unsure:
Defending takedowns can be a complicated but if broken down correctly, IMO it is more manageable to understand and then it becomes more the application of certain defenses. If you can try find some improvised shield such as table or chair to put between you and your attacker.
There are basically four areas of a wrestlerís shot/body we need to deal with:- Hands
- Feet
- Head/chest
- Hips/chest
The first two are generally used by more experienced wrestlers, so I wonít focus too much on those right now as most people we will be dealing with are high school wrestlers and even less experienced. Hands are used to open the body up; utilizing tie-ups, arm drags, knee trips and ankle picks. The feet are used to trip, cause a movement and/or used to scoop a foot up. These can usually be dealt with by not tie-ing up, your movement and keeping your distance. A stationary target is easy to shoot on. Also, if someone tries to make a wrist grab or closes distance you should be adding some type of combative.
The last two are generally what most people are exposed to. These areas can be achieved by shooting in for a takedown or using 1 or 2 initially to get position. So distance and movement is crucial.
Head and chest: This is usually done with an attacker taking a shot but staying fairly high and making contact on your body with their head/chest. These takedowns can generally be handled by Krav Magaís Bear hug defenses, cross faces, combatives, good strong knees and positioning and even pushing them away. Their goal is to get close to eventually tie-up; lock hands around your waist or some other type of over/under hook and then work for the takedown.
Hips and Chest: A takedown is taken generally done by changing levels (lowering their head height) and then making contact with your body or legs. The goal is to get a single leg, double leg, turn the corner, or lift and slam. Once contact is made, a wrestler will then look to lock your hips up, secure one or both of your legs. If they miss, they will look for some type of over/under hook tie-up or body lock. These takedowns can generally be dealt with a sprawl and Krav Magaís bear hug defenses. Your goal on the sprawl is to keep the hip(s) they are shooting for down and away from them. Drive your body weight and chest onto them and keep driving the attackers head and body down into the ground.
Now there are many more takedowns shots, throws, tie-ups and even defenses against all of them. The best is to work on your movement, keep your distance and sprawl. If you want to learn how to stop a takedown, learn to take someone down. You will see all the steps and movements that need to be done in order to achieve the goal. If you stop one of those steps, they will have to transition to something else. Someone that is good at transitions will be very difficult to deal with.Without being in a class setting, it will be very difficult to go much more in depth. The best is to practice like anything else in time your movement will improve as well as your takedown defense.
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