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I’m not going to start a debate here but it might end up that way. Its far beyond my control to manage free speech. So let’s have some fun and dive into this anyways.
Today was belt test day for the Austin Karate Society. It was about 10 ~ 20 minute test depending on the belt you were testing for. You simply demonstrated your skills and got your new belt (or not).
Now some of the ASK guys don’t like me. I made the mistake of showing up in my Krav gear in a rush move to buy some tickets to my sons karate tourny. Since then I have had a few conversation about which is better, Krav Maga or Karate. I absolutely refused to debate them and just flatly agreed with them that if we went to spare right then and there that they would win. (THUS I win since I avoid a fight nah-nah-nah).
But I can’t help wondering….their belt test is 20 minutes. My belt test that is coming up is three hours. ten minutes vs three hours. Simple demonstration of skill vs extremely challenging demonstration of skill under extreme duress and fatigue.
I know I shouldn’t…..I really shouldn’t. But I sit there and watch the Black Belts pull of some fancy spinny kick and I can’t help think to myself *Burst Forward Left jab-Left jab-Right Elbow- Round Knee to thigh*
I stand before you humble and awaiting your judgment of my non-kraviness :jerry:
Re: The age old debate
LOL, this ought to be a good one. I had a similar debate with a friend who trains in a local MMA gym. He wanted to spar, I refused, calmly stating that he was taking half of my skills away if we had rules. He just laughed and dropped it then.
It was good natured and we laughed about it. I told him, “turn off the lights, blast the music, and put a plastic knife in your hands and we’re on”
We still laugh about it…
Re: The age old debate
I’m not sure it’s really a debate buddy – apples and oranges
Ones really pretty, takes years to master and a really fun sport. The other is down and dirty, gets the job done, helps you protect your loved ones and sends you home safe.
Each has it’s place.
If I still wanted to do point fighting and earn more trophies I’d probably still be winning at Internationals.
The question is not whats better, better at what? Point fighting? Sparring?
It’s which one will help you survive in the real world.
Re: The age old debate
I’m sure there are lots of Self Defense applications to Karate. Just like TKD, they have alot of self defense techniques, which are smiliar or the same as KM. Now learning the application of these moves is practiced like once every week for 5 minutes. Where as KM we do for 2 to 3 hours a week. They just don’t practice for defense as much.
I’m sure there are people who hav ereached the level of being very adept at there art and would put the beat down on someone, but for the everyday person I think KM is much more practical and easy to apply.
Re: The age old debate
I like the idea behind krav tests. I kind of look at it as a challenge or a rite of passage. It was born outta the military ideal of never quit. I do have a challenge with your post to the degree that your really saying 2 things..Karate sucks and their tests are for pussies and don’t prove anything….this is called a generalization and isn’t necessarily valid.
Now I pretty much understand the reason behind the my system is best mentality be it SD,politics, religion,etc, but realize that while your doing it here, others are saying the same thing about krav and have the expirience to back it up as well. I’ve always been a firm believer that its not so much the system but how an instructor trains. To catorigize all karate or other systems including MMA as being inferior or their testing inferior is a prejudice a real warrior would never allow themselves to make, because that arrogance could prove fatal to them in the end. Remember, all these systems at their roots where developed for war. Whether, their practiced as a hobby now may be another story
Hard tests are not an exclusive to krav, all systems had/or have them. Kyokushin has a 100 man fight built into their system. No, not everyone has to do it, but it becomes a badge of honor. Thats 100 men in a row. I’ve been to 5 hour kenpo tests as well as a 20 minute one the other day.
Some instructors feel differently about tests. Some look at endurance, some want to see that you understand the material and some don’t test at all and all have valid reasons. And believe it or not some use testing to generate income. And some systems don’t have tests at all..wrestling, boxing, muay thaiAnd not all krav tests are golden. Many times on this forum people have posted that when they got to the test they didn’t know some of the material because they hadn’t seen it or were finding out about some requirements a few days out. A symptom of bigger classes and various instructors as opposed to a smaller dojo where you work on a much more intimate basis
train the system you train in as hard as you can, because theres no real rhyme or reason to violence. Theres no magic bullet, Theres no guarantee that you’ll “Survive” a fight though I do kenpo, BJJ, TKD ,Aikido , TAi Chi or never trained before. Some guys get their training from the US penal system and as agreeing with aretired US Marshall friend, whose an advisor to THe Dog Brothers AMOK and Suarez International, he’d take those guys before most training with systems, because their bloodied and battlehardened. Those guys could care less about our levels or belts cept to use as a weapon
To think your system is great is important. It helps your commitment to it. To think everything else is inferior or doesn’t train as hard is vanity. I think that was one of the cool thing about Fight Quest. seeing others training. Bullshido is the forum for that where people get together to slam what everyone else does, mostly while waiting for their porn to downloadrofl2
Re: The age old debate
Yeah….I didn’t slam it but I did kind of think light of what they do. I did mention that I refused to get into the debate on which discipline is better. Does that take my Bullshido Black Belt and knock me down to a White Belt 😛
Re: The age old debate
Good post Mike!
My Kenpo BB test was 2 days and put me in the hospital with a cracked skull.
And I think Phase A was harder.
Re: The age old debate
quote CJs Dad:Good post Mike!My Kenpo BB test was 2 days and put me in the hospital with a cracked skull.
And I think Phase A was harder.
Yeah but phase wasn’t a students test, but an instructors ranking. And exhaustion drills are a big part of krav from my outside perspective. Plus its what over 50 hours of instruction in 2 weeks. No matter how you look at it thats brutal, like hell week lite for a SEAL. Total military mentality
Sean saw Kevin yesterday while sitting outside the dojo waiting for it to open. He seems like a great guy. Would you look at your proshop to see if you carry barefoot revgear shin guards and a price for me. Easier to stop in than to order. thanks
Re: The age old debate
Sean forgot to mention the fact that you went into phase immediatly after being out with injury for 8 weeks and reinjuried during. Your the reason krav schools have a frozen pea budget
Re: The age old debate
quote unstpabl1:Your the reason krav schools have a frozen pea budgetNow thats funny!
And no I know we only have the shin guards that cover the top of the foot area.
Re: The age old debate
I got this in a newsletter today somehow I read this thread and it seemed applicable.
Written by Range Master Gabe Suarez
THE SWIMMING MASTER….AND FORE ON FORCE
Imagine for a moment if you will, a class of students attentively studying the art of swimming. The instructor, ostensibly an expert swimmer with vast and honorable credentials, certified by the international swimming associations and such, calmly walks up to the class wearing an impeccable gray business suit and begins lecturing on swimming. The environment is totally business-like, clinical, comfortable and of course, dry. the students are clothed in similar business attire to the instructor, doing their very best to emulate him, no….worship him, and notes are being taken as they sip water or coffee.
The renowned lecturer, perhaps an actual master swimmer in the water, goes on to describe the need to float, and to move the arms and legs in unison, this way and that. He discusses in passing how to breathe and what water temperature may do to the technique. He discusses warm water and cold water swimming methods, and he shows films of swimmers, and analyzes their techniques.
Finally, after discussion groups and several written tests, the class understands the concept of swimming.
Then they retire to their respective swim couches and practice their strokes carefully and incessantly. After a while they very good at this and can whip out a back stroke or breast stroke or even a dog paddle like the expert in class. They are given Swimmer Diplomas and sent out ready to swim, or teach others how to swim….should the need arise. In their hearts, they love the Master Swimmer like a father and they deify every word that comes from his mouth.
Eventually these would-be swimmers begin discussing the merits of pumping the arms more than the feet, or of holding the breath or the theoretical need to get the head up out of the place the water would be, if in fact they were actually swimming in water, in order to breathe. Minutia upon minutia are analyzed and discussed to perfect “the couch swim”.
But the problem is that nobody ever gets into the water. You see, the water is a fearful place. One actually gets wet. “There be dragons” seems to be the attitude. “The water is not safe”, some say. Others say that the mere suggestion that one would have to test the Master Swimmer’s Theory Of Swimming, by actually swimming, to be a disloyal and unfaithful act.
ìAnalytical swimmers do not need to get into the waterî, others murmur like a mindless prayer, as they grind through their swim kata every day.
The discussions on minutia and the unanswered questions persist. Yet if one of them dared to wander into the murky wetness, all the questions that they have spent hours and hours bemusing would be answered in one instant flash of sudden understanding.
I’ll let you in on a secret. It is a dark and ugly secret that has been kept hidden like a national security issue for decades.
Most master swimmers do not, in fact, know how to swim.
They can teach you the technique for making swimming motions on a safe couch, but they know nothing of the water. The couch swim doesn’t work in a pool, much less in the ocean. Their students would drown.
That is a fact they would kill to keep hidden, because they have invested so much in their teaching methods and technical presentations.
Quite an illustration isn’t it? Much the same can be said for many other things in life from driving, to mating, to actually having to make a living in the ìcold cruel worldî. One of them is Gun Fighting.
I get students from range-based schools, and their proponents all the time. These guys and gals have been drilled into the indoctrination of how to stand perfectly, how to draw correctly, and of course, how to carefully use the sights to precisely fire a surgically placed pair into a piece of paper.
They have spent their training time perfecting their stance, or focusing more on their front sight, or reacting to the first tone of the whistle or tone. Slight changes in holsters, or triggers, or grips, or other incomprehensible irrelevancies filled their study time.
These things do not last more than the first few minutes of one of our force on force classes. In the first hour, we toss out years of training right out the proverbial window. Is it any wonder the swimming master gun instructors would like all of this to go away? Yet, some of our heresy and blasphemies have spread through the cracks into other otherís curricula. Formerly square-range based, they hesitatingly want to put a toe into the water without getting their carefully pressed Royal Robbins tuxedo wet. You see, it is impossible to hide the truth in the age of the internet.
I have seen them come and draw and fire, then and only then taking a quick single side step so as to give passing lip service to getting off the line of fire, getting off the ìXî, without altering their precise sight picture and carefully developed stable platform.
The open mouth and furrowed brow that results from their failure in force on force is almost uniform.
If only people would simply get into the water…into the Force on Force crucible, all things would be known immediately like the dripping swimmer who has just completed his first pool workout.
In a handful of chaotic and often intense seconds, the force on force student knows more about gunfighting than the untested range instructor who has been shooting groups all his life. And in that sudden fearful realization of what combat is really all about, and in how easy it is to still get killed in spite of all your marksmanship skills, your view on things and your focus in training will change. Things will never be the same again.
Stop being the theoretical dry couch swimmer and jump into the freaking pool. Heck, just think of all the time and money that will be saved once you have the “secret” knowledge that so many are trying to keep from you. Put down your range bag, grab an Airsoft pistol and a training partner and step into the light.
Re: The age old debate
quote CJs Dad:Now thats funny!And no I know we only have the shin guards that cover the top of the foot area.
I’m assuming for shoes and don’t get the toes. Appreciate it Sean. Figured that be too easy
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