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Hi guys
So I know that quite an important part of KM training is the gun disarm. I haven’t learnt it yet in class but I have a fair idea how it goes.
So my question is this. What if the person holding the gun is holding it in a non-conventional way? A) Are you sure that these techniques would work and B) Would that in a real situation maybe rattle your confidence to try the disarm?
I’ll give a few examples of what I mean by unconventional:
Imad Mughniyeh appeared in our newspaper, in a picture where he was hijacking that TWA flight. I’ll try scan it in and post it later, but I’ll try describe how he held the gun, rather unconventionally: His first finger is in the trigger guard, his second finger is in the “corner” between the trigger guard and the handgrip. Third finger is around the handgrip and his pinky finger seems to be coming vertically up the handgrip from the bottom, along the grip. His thumb is on TOP of the gun, just in front of the hammer.
So the problems I see disarming a grip like that, is that you cannot be sure that the gun will move in the same way as in a conventional grip. What if because of his thumb on top and his pinky up the side of the grip it somehow strengthens his hold on the gun and defeats the normal disarms (and maybe he was aware of this?). Why else would he hold the gun in such an unconventional way?
Second “unconventional” gun hold might be if a person holds the gun at you sideways instead of vertically. How would you do the disarm then?
Would any of this cause any problems doing the disarm according to the way KM does it? Or would it actually make it MORE painful for the person holding the gun? (I can see that Mughniyeh might get a few broken fingers, hehe).
Another interesting thing I notice from this picture is the way that Mughniyeh is very close to the pilot, his head pressed against his, and his arm holding down the pilot’s arm on the window sill. He clearly wasn’t about to let the pilot disarm him in front of the world media!! I don’t think there’s much you can do in this situation, but does anybody have an idea for a new “Krav maga” pilot? The gun is pointing out the window, so it’s not directly threatening the pilot at the moment of the photograph.
Are there any other unusual things people can do with guns that can throw you off? And what are the solutions for those situations? What if the attacker is holding the gun with two hands??
Re: Unusual gun disarms
i’m not an expert on gun disarms, but i know that when we practice gun disarms we are told to hold the gun in various manners. the principles of the disarm don’t really change with how the gun is gripped. i’m more concerned with where the gun is trained on the target (ie is it behind me high at the head or in front of me at my torso) or whether it is a handgun vs a rifle than how they are gripping it. one of the things that i like about krav maga is the keep it simple stupid mentality – don’t over complicate things.
there are several good videos on youtube (search krav maga sherman oaks).
Re: Unusual gun disarms
USER: KravCam
Theres several from Jarret Waldman and a few from Kelly C. and BrentW both members of the forums.
Let us know if you have any more questions – I shot the videos. 😉
Re: Unusual gun disarms
Not sure I can fully imagine the weird grip, but it seems as though you wouldn’t have a very strong grip on the gun holding it like that (at least I wouldn’t, I have small hands). So, I would think that the takeaway would still work, especially after losing him up with the punch to the head. If you can’t take the gun right away and there’s a struggle, you could also hit the attacker in the face with the weapon as he is pulling on it, then take it.
The other situations should not pose a problem. If he has two hands on the weapon, you can redirect the gun, take a step to the side and cup the gun with your second hand, then kick to the groin, then disarm. It’s a slightly different technique.
In advanced classes, we point the gun at the victim at various angles and distances and in most cases one can still defend without a problem. There are some tricky ones, such as having the attacker to your side, hooking your arm to immobilize it, then getting really close to you and putting the gun to the side of your ribs, or even slightly toward the back. Makes it impossible to use your close hand, but it’s hard to get that second hand there as well. Or what if he hides the gun underneath a newspaper? Now you can’t grip it. If there is nothing you can do in some of these situations, one option is always to wait until you are in a better position.
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GiantkillerRe: Unusual gun disarms
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I have learnt about self defense (and actually I didnt’ learn this in class) is not to attack until you find yourself at a great advantage. If the opponent is expecting you to attack, or has his guard up, or has any chance of defending your knock-out blows, you can just use psychology to soften him up, instead of using a “jab” or some “soft” move.
I wish that our KM class would include more on the psychology of fighting, because I think it’s very important. I have a whole ebook on my computer on the subject and it’s very fascinating. Like you said with the newspaper etc, you can manipulate your attacker to maybe remove the newspaper, controlling him with words, not fists. Then when you see the opening you can climb into him.
I heard yesterday a bunch of stories from South Africa that in Johannesburg people are literally being shot in the head with little or no warning, while walking around on the street. It sounds really scary, but these people are incredibly ruthless and I’m not sure I’d take my chance defending unless I was certain that they intend to kill me and I had a VERY good opportunity. They often attack in groups, or with a second person hiding in the background. They are also naturally very athletic and strong with very quick reflexes and lots of street fighting experience. I’ve had quite a lot of contact with these guys (not necessarily killers but you never know) and they are downright scary, at the same time being friendly and patronizing, calm and violent.
Re: Unusual gun disarms
The “gangsta” grip comes to mind. It seems like it would be a stupid grip for someone to actually shoot with but if it’s in movies & music videos it must be the best way to threaten someone right?
Re: Unusual gun disarms
“Gangsta” grip, you mean holding the gun sideways and angled down a bit? We hold it like that sometimes, just to throw the defender off, but the technique still works the same.
I guess it’s up to each individual to decide when it’s best to do a defense, or to comply with the gunman’s orders. If he just wants to rob you, but you get the feeling he won’t shoot you if you comply, maybe that’s the best thing to do. But if he wants to kidnap you, force you into his car or something, fighting may be your best option.
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GiantkillerRe: Unusual gun disarms
Re forcing into car etc, I find it useful to remember at all times that your greatest strength when somebody is close to you and trying to move you, is your weight. You can apply little strength horizontally at such a short distance, especially if your attack is strong, but applying 50+kg of downwards force will surely overwhelm the attack and make it VERY difficult for him to move you anywhere. After dropping your weight you can attack him again. Maybe even sweep him from the ground then get up and run.
Re: Unusual gun disarms
I was noticing that when redirecting a gun held in the “gangsta grip”, the type of gun encountered might be a factor to consider. A 9mm can be redirected via the barrel, gangsta grip or not, but a smaller weapon, perhaps a .22 cal because of it’s shorter barrel may necessitate grabbing the trigger guard area along with the barrel which increases the effective width of the weapon since it being held sideways. It may make it harder for those with small to average hand sizes to establish a powerful grip for the redirect of the weapon down.
Re: Unusual gun disarms
quote Liquid Rockface:Yeah, I think the biggest thing I have learnt about self defense (and actually I didnt’ learn this in class) is not to attack until you find yourself at a great advantage. If the opponent is expecting you to attack, or has his guard up, or has any chance of defending your knock-out blows, you can just use psychology to soften him up, instead of using a “jab” or some “soft” move.I wish that our KM class would include more on the psychology of fighting, because I think it’s very important. I have a whole ebook on my computer on the subject and it’s very fascinating. Like you said with the newspaper etc, you can manipulate your attacker to maybe remove the newspaper, controlling him with words, not fists. Then when you see the opening you can climb into him.
I heard yesterday a bunch of stories from South Africa that in Johannesburg people are literally being shot in the head with little or no warning, while walking around on the street. It sounds really scary, but these people are incredibly ruthless and I’m not sure I’d take my chance defending unless I was certain that they intend to kill me and I had a VERY good opportunity. They often attack in groups, or with a second person hiding in the background. They are also naturally very athletic and strong with very quick reflexes and lots of street fighting experience. I’ve had quite a lot of contact with these guys (not necessarily killers but you never know) and they are downright scary, at the same time being friendly and patronizing, calm and violent.
Whats the name of the ebook and do you have a link? Does it cost anything to download?
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