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I’ve been trying to expand myself as far as MAs go. I have trained in kickboxing (more of a sport than an actual ma) in my teens and have stated up again only to stop recently because of financial reasons. recently i have been talking to my friend who also train in various MAs so i could come with them and watch a class. i went with one friend who does Muay-Thai with the expectation that it would be somewhat like western kickboxing, but i was so wrong, it is so much more involved, there are similarities but it is very minimal. for example the stance is different, it is more upright which makes sense when they explained to me that a lower stance such in western kick boxing would facilitate easier kicks and knees to the head. then i thoguht i want to do some sort of grappling because i suck so bad at it and i should learn some if only to be able to stand a fight back up if i ever needed to. i went to check out a BJJ class down by where i live, it’s under the relson gracie association.
The guys in the class were cool, the instructors and everyone was cool. but when i saw some of the things they tech in there for self defense i was shocked. especially since according to the gracie family their BJJ is supposed to be a great defense on the street as it is in the ring. for example one of the things they teach is to get out of a frontal choke hold you first tighten the neck muscles to protect the larynx then execute this wierd, stupid move that is somewhat like a boxers roll except you bend at the waist(like bending over, looks like you are bowing o your attacker) instead of at the knees. the reason i call it stupid is because you have to bend down deep then roll to the right or left simultaneously weaving your head under your attacker’s arms and come back up where your attacker is supposed to be in a nunfavorable position.
first of all you have to bend down deep enough to where your attacker and his weight is standing above you, and second just as in muay thai this would present your attacker with the perfect target to plant his knee into: your face. and if you’ve read the book \”attack proof\” you would know that in every situation you must know that your attacker is a pro at this stuff. people that can’t fight well are not the ones who are going to attack you in a dark parking lot.
That technique only works if someones halfassed choking you To really screw the defense choke bend the arms and get in close
If you’re familar with Attack Proof, it would seem better to counter with a nonspecific defense like a chin jab or web hand between his arms followed by some other stuff, or dropping edge of hand blows to the base of the forearms followed by double eye gouge, ear clap, elbow smashes or whatever happens to fit well, or by reaching around to attack the eye with the thumb while using the other hand to vice the groin. My only issue with the Attack Proof stuff is its difficulty in being applied at full speed and power with resistance (but I think most people don’t realize all of the full contact drills in the book as well- they just see this slow motion \”too deadly\” stuff).
If the attacker was a pro, though, he probably wouldn’t attack with a front choke. There are far better ways to attack someone. I’ve seen a front choke defeated by a solid punch obliquely upward to the ribs.In KM, we pluck the hands of the throat, give a simultaneous groin kick, then continue with counters as needed.
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GiantkillerThe Bjj release to a frontal grab to the throat ( this is not a choke) may not seem ideal to you. I cannot comment as I have not seen it. You should check out KAPAP releases ( we do many) from a frontal throat grab. Have a look and compare them see what you think.
The more releases you know surely the better!! i.e. do you just want a quick release against a mugger for example or you could possibly be a Police Officer that needs to release and restrain.
There are many various situations.
In Kapap we do not learn only one release to a frontal grab, we build up a vast knowledge enabling us to deal with various situations.
I do not think it is a good idea concerning the frontal throat grab to do the KM release, which entails, pluck and kick to the groin. This brings the attackers body forward, which could result in the defender being head butted.
All that I am saying is that, you open your mind and analyse all the techniques that you are practicing, and it would be appreciated if using Kapap techniques, that they are not passed off as KM.
Hi Giantkiller
As mentioned earlier, we teach many choke releases.
One for example would be for a frontal throat grab:
Simply turn your left shoulder to the left so you are sideways onto your attacker, whilst controlling his/her right hand close to your chest, then extend your right hand into their eyes.
The point of controlling their right hand, is so that they cannot move backwards, they are then driven to the ground by your right hand into their eyes, this can obviously be used either side of the body i.e. turn your left or right shoulder.
This is only one of many releases fron this senario.
Hope this answers your question.
Train hard fight easy
\”I do not think it is a good idea concerning the frontal throat grab to do the KM release, which entails, pluck and kick to the groin. This brings the attackers body forward, which could result in the defender being head butted.\”
When kicking to the groin, your upper body moves back, taking you out of range for a potential incidental headbutt.
\”The more releases you know surely the better!!\”
Surely not. Hick’s Law states that reaction time is directly proportional to the number of options given. In other words, the more options you have, the longer it takes you to react. Surely that’s not desirable. Also, most civilians, and certainly most LEOs, have very little time to train, so having half a dozen (or more) techniques to deal with a single attack is not realistic.
Hi Ryan
I have to disagree with you on your first point.
On your second point every situation is different. You need to be able to deal with lets say a frontal throat grab. your attacker could have a barrier between him and you ie. a wall how do you kick his groin??
You could have your back against a wall how do you lean your torso back??
In Kapap we train these situations. Therefore we use more than one technique for a frontal throat grab.
If I am a school teacher and a student grabs my throat can I kick his groin?? In England certainly not . I would have to use a release and restraint. That is why in Kapap we have different techniques to cover all situations.\”I have to disagree with you on your first point.\”
Seriously, that’s it? 😕 😯
Also, I never said you shouldn’t have more than one option, but you implied that the more, the better. This is simply not desirable or realistic. KM has applications that will work for the situations you described, and every situation is different, but it’s important to keep things simple when dealing with limited training time and adrenalized states (see Occam’s Razor.)
BTW, if you’re a 100 pound female school teacher, and your being assaulted by a 200 pound, 18 year old wrestler, I wouldn’t recommend using restraint techniques. 😉
Oh, and according to Webster’s, a choke is define as \”something that obstructs passage or flow\”, so I’ll stick with choke (you can still use frontal throat grab, though, if you prefer.) 😉
Hi Ryan
Sorry if I misled you on your first point. I did however cover this in the rest of the thread. Just training a few simple techniques is better than nothing if they actually work?
To get proficient in any martial art you have to put time and effort into your training.
The more you drill things the more proficient you become even under stress.
In KM, we train different scenarios as well. The pluck can be done one-handed or two-handed for example. If you can’t kick to the groin, because of a table or counter in the way, you could pluck with one hand, then hit with the other.
For the wall scenario, you can use a technique similar to the one we use for choke with a push: Shoot one of your arms straight into the air, then turn to the side (dropping your opposite shoulder to create enough room to turn). Chop down with your elbow to release the choke. When the attacker lets go, you can follow up with counters. Of course, the number and types of counters you might want to use could depend on the situation. If it’s just a small, out of control kid, you could push the person away, in a more dangerous situation, you could give multiple counters, whatever it takes to get away safely.
I don’t think there is much danger of a head butt in our defense. What’s good about it is that you address the danger right away, get rid of the hands choking you.
For the technique you described, are there any counters other than the push to the eyes? Does your motion actually release the choke? What if the person turns his head, so you lose pressure on his eyes (or if you are small and his arms very long, could you still reach the eyes? Once he is on the ground, how do you restrain him (especially if you are not a police officer and don’t carry handcuffs)? Don’t you have to let go at some point and then what do you do? Hit him or just run? Do you remain standing with this technique or do you go to the ground with him? If you do go to the ground, could that be dangerous (especially if he is bigger, he may grab you again and pull you down)?
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GiantkillerSorry but I have to say this,
I agree with Ryan. If you teach numerous responses to the same basic threat the student is overwhelmed and is primarily acting on memory, not natural movements. Additionally KM has a one handed pluck for the same attack. So there are more options.
This whole idea of LEO’s \”restraining\” assailants is nuts. It is easy to restrain a cooperative individual. When a violent attacker approaches an officer, that officer is going to use whatever force that is legal to control this person. Joint locks and control holds are neither effective on everyone or practical for that matter. Instead I would much rather know that our LEO’s are properly trained to deal with real threat. A properly placed boot will be much more realistic and effective in my opinion.
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