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Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote Don:quick two pesos:IMO, absolutely no problem with taking away a BG’s weapon and using it against him – as long as he still presents a credible threat. After all, you are not wearing a holster for it and dropping it or throwing it could potentially allow the BG (or others) to rearm him/herself.
And as far as hitting/countering someone after you’ve been hit – it is LIKELY that you were hitting the BG to Prevent Further battery or physical injury to yourself. And, you struck said BG “X” number of times because “X-1” wasn’t enough and “X+1” would have been too many… thumbsup
Good luck with an LA jury, I’ve had my fate decided by them and their idea of a “credible threat” before. Civilians have none of the protections that sworn do in a lethal force trial, let alone the deep pockets of a city or county to pay for the defense. The most prudent thing to do is to avoid using the weapon if at all possible. Even if you are in the right, there will be a huge price to pay between lawyers, fees, time and stress. Always do what you must to go home safe, but be prepared to defend your actions in a court of law.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
The best thing about this forum is the wealth of awesome answers that are true and accurate. Don, Stafford, Brent, Steve… all gave excellent answers and have a good background. Trust what they are saying.
There really is nothing much to add, other than I second the “screw the takedown” and use the famous Nike Defense.
Don’t get too caught up on the legalities of defending yourself, deadly vs. dangerous weapon, and such- that’s the last thing you should be concerned with. In Krav Maga we drill you to defend, give additional combatives as necessary, assess the situation then create safe separation. We do this specifically to help you understand de-escalation just as quickly as escalation, whether you recognize it or not. We don’t train you stand there and “punish” the person and stay in the situation long after the threat has been neutralized.
Every person regardless of what state in the union they belong to has the right to defend themselves. If you do a search on this subject you will find plenty of additional information on this forum, it seems to be a popular question.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote saruotoko:Okay, first question….what in the world is that “Krav Maga takedown” move? Your description of applying pressure to the temple and spinning the target isn’t ringing any sort of bell. It’s certainly not in the instructor manual through Level 4. By this point in the system, I’m pretty sure I’d know what that move is. 🙂Second question, from my perspective (and not a legel opinion), if the attacker is down and no longer a threat, and/or not moving anymore….at THAT point, if I continue attacking, I’m in trouble, legally.
I think the big determinant is whether or not you had an opportunity to safely exit the situation. If you HAD that opportunity and failed to take it, I believe you then are “in the wrong.” Could one of the LE instructors weigh in on this?
Disclaimer: Mario doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about (RE: Legal information), and is only voicing his own humble opinion.
Mario
The move i’m talking about is where you grab them, do a knee…and then use the same grip and spin them down (if they went for your legs, it would be even easier to take them down)…not really a full on “take down” but it gets them to the ground.
learned it in a KM level 1 class.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote jdawgmcb:The move i’m talking about is where you grab them, do a knee…and then use the same grip and spin them down (if they went for your legs, it would be even easier to take them down)…not really a full on “take down” but it gets them to the ground.learned it in a KM level 1 class.
Yeah, I taught it in class last night. I just had trouble visualizing it from your original description. 🙂
Mario
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote Jeremy Stafford:Good luck with an LA jury, I’ve had my fate decided by them and their idea of a “credible threat” before. Civilians have none of the protections that sworn do in a lethal force trial, let alone the deep pockets of a city or county to pay for the defense. The most prudent thing to do is to avoid using the weapon if at all possible. Even if you are in the right, there will be a huge price to pay between lawyers, fees, time and stress. Always do what you must to go home safe, but be prepared to defend your actions in a court of law.Sorry to hear about your negative experience! Goes along with what I was saying in Seachmall’s thread on Intervention https://kravmaga.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46099&postcount=6
There are a lot of things I don’t like about our judicial system – there are a lot of things IMO that could be done MUCH better, correctly, accurately, efficiently, fairly, etc.
It is an excellent point you make that anything you/we do will likely have legal ramifications (criminal and/or civil).
If/when it’s time for court (the good thing is that the original incident is over and you’re still around to make it to court), make sure you have the “best” legal representation you can get – IMO, use of force subject matter experts are Crucial to have for your side. There have been quite a few LEOs who have been “saved” (even though they handled the situation to the best of their training/experience and with no malicious intent) by having the right people testify on their behalf – any “lesser” representation for the LEOs would have landed them in prison or flat broke or both.
One problem that LEOs sometimes experience is hesitating – worrying about something other than the threat(s) right in front of them. If sh1t is hitting the fan, e.g. someone is attacking you with a weapon, you shouldn’t be worrying about whether someone might be videotaping the fight or that what you do to the BG may “look mean or shocking” or that you might be facing charges or be sued civilly afterwards. Take care of business first and deal with the other stuff later.
Unfortunately, when it’s time for court (IF the BG’s make it to court) the POS attorneys representing the POS BG’s will have the BG’s looking like innocent victims (hair cut, clean shaven, glasses, tattoos hidden, dressed in a suit and tie, injuries highlighted/exposed, in wheelchairs, etc) and remember the old saying about having your fate decided by 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty?
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote Don:One problem that LEOs sometimes experience is hesitating – worrying about something other than the threat(s) right in front of them. If sh1t is hitting the fan, e.g. someone is attacking you with a weapon, you shouldn’t be worrying about whether someone might be videotaping the fight or that what you do to the BG may “look mean or shocking” or that you might be facing charges or be sued civilly afterwards. Take care of business first and deal with the other stuff later.This is advice that every new police officer needs to live by. Instead, we get 23 weeks of academy training that is focused on avoiding litigation. Survival is an afterthought…
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
State and local laws lay out what is considered reasonable defence and also it depends on the cops at the scene and the DA if it is an iffy scenario. The best idea is that disable and get out.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
i Would Rather Be Judged By 12, Than Be Carried By 6.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
FYI, the Black Belt book due out by summer’s end has a section on UOF.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
quote Black_Ops:i Would Rather Be Judged By 12, Than Be Carried By 6.This.
The way I have always understood “self-defense” is that it is about perceived threat. If you knock your attacker to the ground, but your leg is in a cast and you cannot run away, are you still in danger?
If you are able to run away, but you have a family member with you who is not, is there still a threat?
Bottom line is, you cannot stop to think about what this guy’s lawyer may do to you in court months from now – you have to worry about what his knife may do to you seconds from now.
Re: When does it become considered "assault" instead of self defense?
Hi guys 🙂
This is my first post after my introduction but I’m a Police Science Student in University here in the UK so I thought I’d shed some light on our interpretation of this matter in terms of British law.
If you can prove that the force you use is reasonable, justifiable and necessary you’ll pretty much be ok.
You have the right in British law to defend yourself, your close relatives and your property aslong as you do it within the parameters I just mentioned.
For example if someone attacks you with a knife, you are not safe until they are either disarmed, out cold or injured so they can’t hurt you. So typical Krav disarms eith a few strikes to make your point would be fine aslong as when you have the knife you walk/run away.
However if you were to stab them after disarming them, or continue to attack them when they are no longer a threat, you’re probably going to be looking at a charge of Actual or Grievous Bodily Harm.That was just to give you an idea of what I mean but the three key words in British law as far as this is conserned are reasonable, justifiable and necessary.
Just a thought from this side of the water 🙂
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