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Well,
After playing with this defense while working with attackers who attempt to stab more than once I have found that wrapping the knife arm is safer than attempting to control the hand after making the defense.
I know. I know. The punch will aid the defense too. While true I do think that the damage from the punch is a relatively unknown factor. Since each individual is different and the size of the defender and attacker vary from scenario to scenario it is virtually impossible to gauge the effectiveness of the punch in most situations.
My 5’4 105lb female students are not going to do enough damage with that punch to stop a 200lb angry attacker. Nevermind that if the attacker recoils the knife and attempts to stab again the smaller defender is going to be in a world of hurt.
However when the attacking arm is wrapped the amount of control for the defender is incredible. Again there are no 100% methods vs knife. I will tell you that when the arm is wrapped the control and ability to use more violent combatives makes the choice easy for me.
The argument I have heard against the technique is ” What about the disarm?”. Look disarms are luxuries not neccesities. Not to mention the fact that you can always disarm anyone who is unconcious. So just pound on him. Lastly there are a few options for disarm if you know what you are doing. The most obvious is to literally “disarm” the attacker by breaking the arm. Not much pressure needed and a smaller person can do this to a larger attacker. The technique takes gross motor skills which are more favorable than finer motor skills (thinking of cavalier) under stress.
Have any of you experienced this?
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
I agree..I sometimes find it easier to get the knife arm wrapped. You can really put a world of hurt on someone’s shoulder or elbow with little effort. Perhaps, it is because of my past MA experience; not sure. I’ve seen the technique I’m specifically done in KM, but I don’t know what it is called in Krav.
Also, I agree that the disarm isn’t the only thing to worry about. Some people get so focused on the weapon, that they forget about everything else (other options, vulnerabilities, proper technique, etc…).
Good post
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
That is the same conclusion my school came to when doing live drills. At slow learning speed both worked equally well, but when we added face shields (so we could actually strike the face) and picked up the speed a bit it became even more difficult to control the knife arm when the attacker stumbled backwards.
Also like you mentioned in cases where the victim does not drive the attacker backwards the knife recoil and 2nd strike is very fast. I’ve used large markers and white shirts to demostrate this. It’s shocking to see all the pen marks on the nice clean white shirt and realize that those are cuts in a knife fight. Adds extra fun (and realism) at the end of a knife seminar.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
I understand the point being made, but could someone explain how the individual would wrap the arm holding the knife? I’m having trouble visualizing it.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
I think of it like the overhand stick defense. Keep the arm that the blade is on straight and jump in past the blade. I generally use the other arm to deliver a short stunning elbow on the way in as I’m wrapping my arm around the blade arm. Don’t forget to make a fist to hold the hand with the knife tight.
This does pin the blade close to your lats and you’ll probably take a few minor cuts as the struggle goes on but if you can lock the knife in place it will not go anywhere and you are free to headbutt, knee, elbow the attacker as he focuses on not losing the knife.
Or he drops the knife and at least it’s a fair fight.
I will say that this works if the attacker is in close, or you have to close the distance yourself. I wouldn’t attempt this if the blade was swinging down and I was in long punch or kicking range, at that point I think you are forced more into the traditional 360 block and then come in quickly or try to control the arm on the outside.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Hello people.
Recently trained with Gaby Noah, and he defends that is very difficult, almost impossible, to control a vicious ice pick attack, the best solution is to keep, the Block(360?) and counter as much as you can, wrap, control, is almost impossible, anyone who trys to control in a full force attack, will notice that.
Best Regards 🙂
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
I would absolutly agree that it is very difficult to actually control the weapon or the attacker. That said from a teaching standpoint I don’t think we can advocate to box with the attacker and not to worry about control.
I will agree if you’re not striking again and again with whatever weapon you have available (fist, elbow, head, knee etc…) eventually you will get cut or stabbed again and again.
This is one of those make the best of a bad situation defenses. If there was one perfect answer we’d all do it but a knife goes to every angle, very fast, very hard to control and very deadly.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
D,
How are you getting to a wrapping position?Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Big Brother Brent!
The primary defense does not change. Everything is the same until the control portion. When performing the defense we are taught to burst through and drive the knife arm back behind the shoulder. Instead of sliding down to the forearm/wrist for control, we have been wrapping in a very similar manner that we do in overhead stick defense. Of course the exception here is that we are doing the wrap from the 360 not the redirect like on stick.
When we did this with while wearing white t-shirts and covering the training blades with lipstick there were at times smudges on the defender’s (defending arm) left side flank area near the love handles,well those of us who have them anyways lol…. None of these incidental cuts would be life threatening at all. In many cases there were no marks at all.
It is even more imperative that the defender bursts through with commitment in order to achieve the wrap. The disarm is a luxury not a neccesity. There are several options for the disarm. Again disarming an unconcious person is always favorable.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
So the test is , if you’re late or limited in movement. Then what?
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Yes,
That did come to mind. But the answer should be the same regardless of wrapping or controling the arm with the hand. If you are late or limited, it should be 360 defense with counter and disengage immediately. Get distance and keep moving. But this should be our answer in all things if we are late and limited.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Good answer….. good answer. I’ll be watching you.
I haven’t had a problem controlling the arm as long as I’m not chasing it but I’ll have to give it a try.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
psyops, sir is it possible that you could record that defense and then post the video here?
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Tech94,
Yes. We are going to film it later this week. I will post it!
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
D. Are you talking about something like this in the first 4 seconds of this video?
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