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Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
hello ppl.
Really, you¥re still teaching que control of the arm, on the ice-pick attack? It¥s very difficult, almost impossible, if anyone, stabs more than once, like in real life.
If the attacker, attack only once(not realistic) it is very easy to control, but once more, an illusion.On the oriental attack, the control it¥s easier and possible, but ont the ice-pick…hum…don¥t believe it.
Nowadays, we are training in my place, to only block(maintain the block 90?) and counter-attack as much as possible, and run, no control, no disarm..
What do you think?
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
No it is not almost impossible. I train multiple attacks almost exclusively after the second time they see it. If you aren’t training multiple stabs you aren’t training.
My argument with that training is this – what if you can’t run/leave. What if you have to fight? Multiple attackers? What then?
Try it with a real punch and drive through the target (not chasing the knife.) It works pretty damn well.
Shock knives – Woot Woot!!
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Funny,
I showed the wrap this weekend and some of the practitioners and instructors were convinced that I had lost my mind when I declared publicly that a disarm is a luxury not a neccesity. The argument always comes back to the “what if you can’t run”. This is a real concern. But here’s the thing. There is a gaping hole here in the mentality. Krav Maga Worldwide and some other organizations show the disarm all the time. Very rarely is the technique shown with just making the defense and escaping. This gives students and instructors the false belief that a disarm must be done each time.
If I am in a situation and I can’t escape the attacker,the disarm has to be performed. But there is another piece of the puzzle. If you have to disarm the attacker because you can’t escape, what do you do with the knife once you have it? You stay in the room that you couldn’t escape with an attacker who still has the ability to hurt you? Even if you knocked him on his ass what do you do when he gets up? Most schools don’t talk about this.
If I have to disarm someone its because of my inability to escape or there might be multiple attackers. In either case the person who was disarmed is going to feel that knife go in to his flesh. Sorry. Again most schools won’t talk about this because of liability.
Lastly,
Cavaliers are part of the system. I have my own ideas about cavaliers but I will leave that for some other time. Cavaliers are the primary disarms taught in Krav Maga, well at least KMWW anyways. They are not the only disarming option though. If you think that they are all you need to know you are crazy. If you think that you can pull them off with a commited attacker than you should come to our knife survival course later this summer. You will be humbled. You will learn and hopefully you will realize that having a mindset that encourages absolutes is faulty.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
A wise man answered a forum question about disarms that I had posted with this piece of advice “an unconscious person is easy to disarm, repeated elbows to the face tends to facilitate the unconscious state”.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Yes, Cavaliers are hard to do with an aggressive attacker. When I was going through me LEO training our D.T. partners would have to come at us full force with rubber knives. And with the variations of swings, mostly short slashes, the only thing i could do was wrap his arm, and introduce him to the ‘knee to the groin’ , headbutt, takedown. Maybe I am just not that skilled, but I could not catch that arm with is short slashes for a cavalier.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
I think this is excelent stuff from Itay Gil controling the arm.
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
All,
We are having an edged weapon and stick survival course in Las Vegas on August 21-22. So this and many other defenses are going to be tested. I am encouraging those of you who can attend this event to do so. We will have a special instructor on day one. Rene Latosa of Latosa Escrima will be teaching knife and stick offensive tactics. This is not a fancy Escrima or Kali. Latosa Escrima is notorious for its street application and agressiveness.
Day 2 will be taught by Yours Truly. I will be covering many aspects of knife defense from live knife attacks to pending. We will be training with shocknives as well as knives covered in dye or lipstick. You will be engaging attackers at full speed because they will have the appropriate protective gear as you will also.
We will film portions of this and share some on our website. However we encourage you to attend. This seminar is a direct result of this subject. So we can put all of the talk to the side and get in a room and train at full speed. If you are of the means and you have the desire to learn come on and train with us. The drills that we do will no doubt be new to most of you. It’s going to be nuts!
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
Any follow-up to this? How was the Las Vegas course? Any videos to share? Was hoping some full speed demos of the knife arm wrap would help crystalize the concept.
cQc
Re: 360 defense vs overhead stab, wrapping vs control of stabbing hand
IMHO edge weapon defense is the most difficult to defend. As Psyops has pointed out you MUST train for multiple, brutal, and fast attacks. Dog Brothers has some excellent LE research on the most typical prison attacks. For most that don’t know, it is refered to as the “sewing machine” method. It is an ice pick stab that is relentless over and over. I am attaching a very graphic video so don’t watch if you are squimish. Half the video is empty hand fighting but view closer alot of these attacks are the sewing maching ice pick stabs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dywkwVu5PBc&feature=related
BradW, you are completly justified and correct to wrap the arm and control the weapon. I have proven in our class time and time again that trying a wrist cavalier on someone stabbing at you is just not that effective in practical use. See the video above, inmates are punching while getting stabbed so to assume that your 360 block and one punch will fend off the attacker is just false. THESE INMATES are likely the people that would be trying to attack you when the get released back on the streets. Plus what if it is raining or the attacker is sweating, suntan lotion etc… then your hand will slip right off. Additionally this doesn’t work well for women with small hands against larger men with larger wrists. Don’t fool yourself, it may work in a static training environment, but not when the arm is moving violently. Attached is a great video of a KM instructor doing exactly what BradW has suggested. We teach our students this defense in addition to the cavalier defese. 9 times out of 10 most are more comfortable and faster disarming the attacker using the wrap and arm control technique. I am not affiliated with this KM association, in fact we are a KMWW school, however my ego is not so big that I can’t see this guy makes a great point. Check out the video and keep this thread going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGzhtDf0ec&feature=player_embedded
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