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Hi All,
I am new here but have been doing Krav since early this year. I have also added BJJ and hopefully a little Judo into the mix.
My disappointment is that my training place does very little sparring (and just standup at that). It is only one time a week and it is not even a full class. I know some people feel that sparring is not that big a deal in Krav because you can’t practice certain aggressive elements anyway.
I still think being able to handle yourself blocking punches, kicks, defending the takedown, timing, etc are super important and even to know that basic things work against a resisting opponent.
I started BJJ four months ago and had a little ground training from Krav. When I try to trap and roll… it is not working for me. I am a small female and when I try to trap and roll a bigger person at BJJ… Ha! Tough luck.
However, doing BJJ I am figuring out what works even on larger people. I have resisting opponents and they are placing real pressure on me. It is not a drill… They are trying to choke me out or catch me in a joint lock so they are using their weight. The little trap and roll I do in Krav ever so often is not going to work. There are women who think this will help them, but without practice in a dynamic situation, they are kidding themselves.
Sometimes… the attacker’s face or groin is not readily accessible so those may not be options either. I have been placed in all sorts of positions where those things will not work.
I began to think… If this is true for the ground… What about for the stand-up work? My BJJ gym has some MT… but at most I could do it once a week.
I guess I feel like Krav is a good foundation but without resistance… I don’t feel super confident.
I know some Krav places have BJJ or MMA within the same facility. Just looking for what other people’s Krav places do or if anyone else has not felt really that prepared.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
Hey Kravjitsu, welcome to the forums!
As with any system, sparring is an absolute must. With Krav sparring, it looks more like Kickboxing and if elbows/knees/clinch and take downs permitted, more like MMA/Muay Thai with groin kicks allowed. It’s true that there are certain elements of Krav you just can’t apply in a safe manner (eye gouge, full force kick to the groin and head, etc.) but you can certainly learn how to take a hit and give a hit. When you say very little sparring, what does that mean? Once in a blue moon? If there is sparring, it is strictly stand up (no rolling at all?)
It is great that you are cross training in a ground based art. Personally, I feel that the Krav curriculum for the ground is not complete. However, with that, I believe if you were to get into a fight with an inexperienced ground grappler, the trap, buck and roll will work. If you’re going against someone who knows the ground game than you’re probably not going to get them off you this way. This is from experience!
Does the higher levels at your Krav school spar? I didn’t spar at all in Level 1 (Krav class) but my school has a “fight program” which is an entirely separate set of classes (ground, intro fight, fight 1, fight 2, MMA, Grappling) and you can start that whenever you want. I didn’t start sparring in the krav classes until Level 2. You should ask your instructor when can you expect to spar and if he says there is no sparring, I would ask why not. Even if you can only attend one MT class and spar in there, it’ll be good for you.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
quote :I know some people feel that sparring is not that big a deal in Krav because you can’t practice certain aggressive elements anyway.I’ve heard that but I think it’s a pretty lame excuse to not spar. Nobody spars at full power even in MMA. Otherwise, people would be walking out of class with broken arms or faces that look like this. [:)]
Re: A Little Disappointed…
quote kravjitsu:Hi All,I am new here but have been doing Krav since early this year. I have also added BJJ and hopefully a little Judo into the mix.
My disappointment is that my training place does very little sparring (and just standup at that). It is only one time a week and it is not even a full class. I know some people feel that sparring is not that big a deal in Krav because you can’t practice certain aggressive elements anyway.
I am Pro sparring. Have you tried talking to your instructors?
I still think being able to handle yourself blocking punches, kicks, defending the takedown, timing, etc are super important and even to know that basic things work against a resisting opponent.
I agree.
I started BJJ four months ago and had a little ground training from Krav. When I try to trap and roll… it is not working for me. I am a small female and when I try to trap and roll a bigger person at BJJ… Ha! Tough luck.
No one said it would be easy – lol. If it makes you feel any better, the same thing happens to me from time to time too. From your choice of wording and description, it sounds like you have very limited BJJ experience and I’m not sure you’re getting the attention you may need from your BJJ instructors – IMO, you should be a little further advanced at 4 months (at least with understanding some of the basic principles).
However, doing BJJ I am figuring out what works even on larger people. I have resisting opponents and they are placing real pressure on me. It is not a drill… They are trying to choke me out or catch me in a joint lock so they are using their weight. The little trap and roll I do in Krav ever so often is not going to work. There are women who think this will help them, but without practice in a dynamic situation, they are kidding themselves.
Without being there watching them instruct and you train, I can’t accurately comment but at your current level of training/experience, IMO, no one should be making it Impossible for you to work techniques.
Sometimes… the attacker’s face or groin is not readily accessible so those may not be options either. I have been placed in all sorts of positions where those things will not work.
If you have questions about positions or situations, Ask! If eyes or groin are not available for targeting, what else might be? If you can’t poke, punch, or kick, what else might you be able to do? How did you get “placed” into these positions? Where did you start from? Did you wait until the very end to consider targeting eyes/face/groin?
I began to think… If this is true for the ground… What about for the stand-up work? My BJJ gym has some MT… but at most I could do it once a week.
Once a week is better than “nunce” a week.
I guess I feel like Krav is a good foundation but without resistance… I don’t feel super confident.
Tell your instructors your concerns.
I know some Krav places have BJJ or MMA within the same facility. Just looking for what other people’s Krav places do or if anyone else has not felt really that prepared.
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Re: A Little Disappointed…
Ok… thanks for the responses so far.
I will add more info.
Regarding trap and roll… When I first started BJJ, I noticed trap and roll did not work for me. As someone else said earlier… these are other grapplers and larger men. I am a smaller female so I think in that scenario it is not as high percentage of a move for me vs if I were a guy. That being said… because I roll, I have since found other alternatives. In the end, my skill has increased because I can escape from mount.
How much do we spar? One night a week at 9PM for 30min or so. This is pretty late to me for a class when most classes are earlier in the evening. It is basically like kickboxing. Sometimes just boxing to focus on one thing at a time. There really should be more.
Who gets to spar? Level 2 and up.
Have I spoken to my instructors? Yes, the one who does the sparring class who thinks more sparring would be better and the head instructor whose response was I will get better if I keep coming to regular Krav class. :Surprised:
Another thing is men tend to be with men and women with women. I get that. Maybe it is seen as more “safe” that way. Sometimes I am with a man though. Most of the time I am with women and women just go A LOT softer on each other than the men. There are a few exceptions, but that is the general way it is. If I get choked it will likely be by an aggressive man. I usually just am a compliant partner with the ladies and let them do the technique. Then once they got it, I will be more difficult (add more strength, aggression, move around more, etc) and they’ll be SO surprised. I am pretty strong for a female my size but I say, “oh and I’m just a woman… Imagine if I were a man???” You can tell they are surprised! How can these women know this stuff works if they are always with another woman and they mostly go soft as Charmin toilet paper with each other??? . Hey, they have a good time though and get a good workout!
I guess with something so mainstream… You have two options… To make it accessible in America you can go the route of getting more people or better trained people. More people means you have to make it at a level where people will want to do it and it is easier for them to do something and feel accomplished. Punching a bag and doing a cool gun disarm makes people feel like they did something and there is little discomfort other than a workout… maybe a stray hand and foot every now and then.
Secondly, you can where people are better trained. This is the harder route and people may get hurt more often or the aggression level may make it more uncomfortable… but it would be more realistic. Of course, people try to find a happy medium.
Since starting BJJ, I have hurt my toes, fingers, chest, shoulder, etc. I have heavy, sweaty guys on me, sometimes I am smothered, awkward positions… way more uncomfortable but the training is just more realistic for what it teaches. I felt good being aggressive on a pad at a Krav. Sometimes it’s tough for me to go to BJJ because I don’t get the instant gratification that I kicked butt on a pad or air groin kicked a compliant partner. I know I am going to get my rear handed to me… AGAIN. Yet, women in the past have made it and so I know with time and rolling and tapping over and over again, I will be able to be on the ground with larger men and hold my own… Even now I have small victories… Like sweeping a guy when he wasn’t expecting it. YES!
I have seen some Krav places incorporate other martial arts. I even looked around my area to look for another school and see if I could find something like that. I didn’t see anything like that close by so I feel stuck. It’s not like I get no benefit… I like the aggression, awareness, some of the escapes, and the weapons part. Actually fighting…. Um… Need to definitely find my own thing some place else. Only thing I can hope for with my current place to see if things are different in the Level 4 class. They seem more aggressive but we’ll see.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
don’t have time to fully reply right now…
to help you stay motivated… 😀
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=girl+guy+bjj&sm=3
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x35vd9_girl-fights-guy_sport
Re: A Little Disappointed…
If it helps at all, I have trouble with the buck and roll as well. I’m by no means a small woman, in fact, I find I have as much trouble bucking some of the smaller guys (and gals) in my class, as I do the big guys. It’s not about strength, it’s about technique. Some people just grasp the technique faster than others. As for sparring – we do quite a bit of it in L2 at my club. I think that’s because our owner/head instructor is a big believer in it. Krav is the only thing I’ve ever done, so this is all new to me too, so I can relate to how you feel. After my L1 test, the first couple of months in L2 were incredibly hard for me – I was seriously doubting my skills. After speaking to the owner/head instructor, I found out this this feeling was actually pretty common. I’m feeling much more confident now. There is no shortcut, hard work and perseverance will pay off. As for Krav lacking in ground-fighting skills – KMW has recognized this and has developed a new curriculum for ground fighting. I believe they are in the process of training the instructors and it should be coming out soon!
Re: A Little Disappointed…
The buck and roll escape you kep metioning is almost exactly the same as the basic “upa” escape you will find in Gracie Jiu Jitsu/BJJ. It also has its origin in Judo and you will find a similar “bridging” movement in wrestling.
What is your BJJ teacher teaching as a fundemental mount escape? Most will teach the upa or hip escape.
Krav Maga’s mount escapes have their roots in Judo with slight modifications.
Either you didn’t learn it correctly or you were not taught it correctly.Re: A Little Disappointed…
quote KevinMack:The buck and roll escape you kep metioning is almost exactly the same as the basic “upa” escape you will find in Gracie Jiu Jitsu/BJJ. It also has its origin in Judo and you will find a similar “bridging” movement in wrestling.
What is your BJJ teacher teaching as a fundemental mount escape? Most will teach the upa or hip escape.
Krav Maga’s mount escapes have their roots in Judo with slight modifications.
Either you didn’t learn it correctly or you were not taught it correctly.I don’t know what your grappling background is so won’t use you for example. How about you find some small female at your school with under a year Krav and place her in a BJJ school with a heavy male on top and tell her to Upa. :Surprised: Make sure to let her know how she is not doing it right when it doesn’t work… nevermind she probably only got to practice it in only a few classes with probably a compliant partner who doesn’t know how to maintain top control.
Yes, Upa is a fundamental move but it is not taught every class! In fact, now that I am outside of the fundamentals class, it is not taught at all though. You learn by lots of drilling (practicing) and lots of live training (rolling in case of BJJ)… not doing it a few times in a Krav class with a compliant partner.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
Hello kravjitsu
My wife and I train Krav Maga. My wife is 5’6″ 140 and I’m 6’2″ 225. It took my wife nearly a year before she could buck and roll me with any consistency. Sometimes she can get the buck only, which forces her to use what little space she has to fight the rest of the way out. We are very fortunate to have guys with Blue, Purple, and Brown belts in BJJ train at our school . . . and my wife has been able to buck and roll those guys. But regardless, the focus of Krav is to not wind up in that position in the first place. So if you feel you can’t and/or never will be able to buck and roll a larger person, then work on avoiding that situation at all costs.
As for realistic training . . . you stated that you have been training Krav Maga for, what, 10 months? If that is the case, then by this point you should know the good partners from the not so good partners. If all of your partners are compliant 100% of the time, then you need to speak up and let them know your needs. You cannot afford to allow your partners to be compliant all of the time.
FYI
Kevin Mack is a highly respected practitioner and is extremely knowledgable concerning the history of Krav Maga and various marital arts. It seems you missed the point of his post.Re: A Little Disappointed…
quote Krav Math:Hello kravjitsuMy wife and I train Krav Maga. My wife is 5’6″ 140 and I’m 6’2″ 225. It took my wife nearly a year before she could buck and roll me with any consistency. Sometimes she can get the buck only, which forces her to use what little space she has to fight the rest of the way out. We are very fortunate to have guys with Blue, Purple, and Brown belts in BJJ train at our school . . . and my wife has been able to buck and roll those guys.
I am happy for your wife. She has you to drill with… which is what I mentioned in my last post. Drilling is important. She also has people who do BJJ she can try it on. Most women do not have even that. I will add though… if your wife was on the ground with one of the BJJ guys… even if she could trap and roll… even a white belt has significantly better top control where they would position themselves so the trap and roll could not take place. That is what I go through in live rolling, which is different and more dynamic than drilling alone…. though again drilling is very important.
Oh and… yeah… I could trap and roll pretty easily my female partners even when they were trying not to roll. It’s when it’s real time with someone who knows what they are doing or significantly heavier where the issue comes in.
quote Krav Math:If all of your partners are compliant 100% of the time, then you need to speak up and let them know your needs. You cannot afford to allow your partners to be compliant all of the time.I mentioned this as part of the problem in one of my previous posts. Except a here and there… women train with women and men with men. Ever so often if asked a man will try the move on you… but with no consistency. I do try to get my partners to amp it up, but it is not near as much as a guy who I am likely to be attacked from.
Again, there is very little sparring so even if I did have a man work with me… certainly it would help on your typical escapes… but not on what to do in a fight… If a guy attacks me in the street, he is going to try to hit me in the face or take me down to the ground. I can block a punch but defending the takedown or what to do once I am there… I feel I am not getting what I need. Not just on the ground but just a gameplan in general… I think it’s a bunch of crock for a woman to ever hang in the mid-range with a man dealing punches. A lot of the women barely can punch even pads at my school and is unlikely to even stun a guy. Myself probably included. If she can’t run away… I would think kicks or getting in close. That dynamic is just not taught at least at my school… like I am supposed to just know how to chain stuff together without any sparring.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
I am not saying Krav has no use. I think it really can be good depending on the school but I think that if women are thinking it is a panacea (or even men)…. that it is not. Unless your school has ground and stand-up sparring from people who know what they are doing (maybe a background in BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, Kickboxing (not cardio), or MMA, etc. as well as Krav) people will be missing out.
A lot of schools from what I have researched and read about and even my own seem to be more about hitting a pad and doing some common escapes than actually learning how to really fight.
At my BJJ gym, I just found out they will be adding some more MMA 101 classes and incorporating more sparring where you can have class and then have a session of ground sparring and then switch over to MT sparring or MMA. That will probably be cool if it is what I am thinking.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
You keep mentioning that trap and roll won’t work. Do you realize there are other options within the Krav curriculum for defending full mount? If plan A doesn’t work or if your opponent counters it then go to Plan B. It is entirely possible that you will end up switching between Plan A and Plan B all within the same defense because of the way your opponent reacts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
Ok… I just used trap and roll as an example. I also just used ground fighting as an example… No need to drive it into the ground.
The big point I am trying to make is that unless you have resisting partners hitting a pad and doing air combatives will only get you so far. This leads to people having a false sense of their abilities.
I only used my BJJ rolling as an example as well because of how things are not as simple in a live situation.
Re: A Little Disappointed…
Kravjitsu, you don’t mention which school you train at or which organization, if any, they may be affiliated with. Most legit schools have a variety of classes, beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc. After 10 months, most enthusiastic students, which it sounds like you are one, would have moved on to a more advanced class where, I can assure you, compliant partners and people who can barely hit pads are NOT a problem. You’ll take plenty of lumps in the more advanced classes if you’re not on your game.
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