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Personally, I am uncomfortable with the degree of attitude on both sides, especially from those of us who focus more on self defense.
I have written articles on this topic, and I believe very much that there aspects of Krav Maga that are important for the average person but are not covered in mma.
HOWEVER, the contact nature of mma, the application in sparring, is very good, and we should always maintain a healthy respect for that sort of training.
At the KMNTC, we just re-instituted a high level fight class because we were feeling like there hadn’t been enough contact. Just as when we do gun defenses we have the attacker push, yell, pistol-whip, and kick the defenders for realism, we must also include standup and ground contact in fighting to prepare for those situations.
I don’t think we should take MMA fighters too lightly. One thing they don’t have compared to KM are all of the specific weapons defenses. That is the largest drawback if they should find themselves in a self-defense scenario. Other than that, well… multiple attacker situations aren’t addressed in MMA at all, so we may have an edge here. However, we don’t practice them that much either. We are told basic, logical things, such as run if you can, stay out of the middle, pick up a weapon. It may give the KM practitioner an advantage, but then again the MMA fighter may have superior fighting skill to deal with the multiple attackers, so it could be a toss up (depending on how long the person has trained in his system).
Chokes, bearhugs etc… Those things happen in MMA, so the MMA fighter should know how to deal with them. Bigger attacker? Well, he doesn’t fight a bigger attacker in the ring, however he goes full impact against another person his own size in the ring – something we never do, so if anything this may give him a slight edge, because he may have developed a greater ability to take a punch than the average KM person. We do spar with bigger people, but this goes back to what Psyops said – the big guys are holding back a lot, so it’s really not comparable to what it would be like having to face a similarly sized person in an actual street fight.
Situational awareness, verbal deescalation… we don’t really train in it that much, other than some useful tips \”give him what he wants\” etc. We may have a slight edge here, but just because a guy is a MMA fighter doesn’t mean that he isn’t aware of his surroundings or wants to engage in a fight with a perfect stranger if he can avoid it.
Training to defend the eye gouge and bite? I don’t think we’ve ever done that. Is that even something you can train for?
Anyway, I don’t think we should underestimate the MMA fighter’s ability to defend himself in a street fight. Against non-weapon attacks, I don’t think his odds would be much worse than those of the average KM practitioner. The one thing MMA fighters don’t have are weapons techniques, which is where they could learn from KM, so the whole KM/MMA hybrid isn’t a bad idea.
Yes, the new fighting class is great. It’s important to focus on the clinch, takedowns and ground fighting in addition to the kickboxing, because one might very well find oneself in that situation. It seems to come natural for people wanting to fight to try and grab the other person, while also trying to punch. I once saw two huge guys fighting and they were both holding on to each other and pushing each other across the street, once in a while letting go with one hand to try and land a punch.
The only thing I really got out of the video was to not fight Mark Kerr or Mark Coleman and I knew that anyway.
That being said, the video seems to be implying that a lot of the fancier looking arts don’t work in the real world, but I don’t think Krav deserves to be lumped in with these \”fancy\” arts. If anything, it prides itself on being as no-frills as possible.
Giant,
Correct, those are bootlegged copies. Poland is part of the EU, so according to the law, this is not legal…
Mea Culpa, John. I just re-read my previous post and I was sort of meaning to be light-hearted about them, since they were made sort of tongue in cheek since G.V. has a penchant and an appreciation for good sarcasm.
I work out with a guy who is an amazing grappler. He works ground stuff with me-I do striking with him. It’s a good trade. When we’re grappling, he picks my brain about real-life fight stuff…but conceptually, he understands the fact that it’s not ideal to go one on one on the ground out on the street. The good part is he takes a relatively humble approach to his own training and understands its limitations. So he incorporates thoughts about weapons and multiples in his training, but it’s sort of like re-inventing the wheel for him, because a lot of it ends up being \”best guess\” sort of situation. On the other hand, as a KM person, I benefit greatly from being forced to start from a really disadvantaged position with him.
I would not try to teach/coach MMA stuff, even though I know more than the average untrained person about it. An MMA fighter or coach would know far more about self-defense than a completely untrained person, and if they are a self-aware individual, they’ll be good about offering expertise where they have it, and stopping short where they don’t. Anyone who instructs can only hope to tow that line.
Giantkiller…about verbal de-escalation. Thinking back I realized that my best verbal de-escalation training did not come specifically from Krav Maga instructors, but rather from another person in the self-protection industry who works closely with several Krav facilities on the east coast. I’m going to start another thread about the verbals, though, b/c I don’t think it’s addressed enough.
I’ve studied Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for several years. One thing I realized is once to get to Bluebelt level you’re basically learning techniques to contend with another grappler. The full contact sparring I find to be essential in order to give you the will to fight when you’re fatigued. I also realized that groundfighting is only part of the equation. I think a combination of BJJ and Krav Maga is a great way to develop the skills to deal with any situation. I do think that there should be more sparring in Krav Maga. I do enjoy the \”fighting fitness\” the classes provide. Often times the person who wins is the most fit!
I’ve definitely come to accept that the \”sport\” fighting methods are good training for the street in certain respects, but there’s a couple strategic things that can be very problematic. The groundfighting issue has been done to death, but there are other problems as well. For instance, take Hatmaker’s No Holds Barred Savage Striking and put a knife or push dagger in the opponent’s hand in the blocking demos (mostly stonewall blocking with some FMA style tool destruction). Its not pretty. The 360 defense works much better in that scenario.
A lot of that came from Straight Blast Gym, it appears. I like what they have done for the most part, but their attitude sometimes seems equally as dogmatic as those who don’t do ANY live drilling. Mark Denny of the Dog Brothers has spoken about the value of using dead patterns for developing skills later applied to live training. Dogmatic thought is limiting on either side of the spectrum.
It also bothered me how they bashed the high kick from MARTIAL ARTS as ineffective when they are a common fight stopper, even used by Mark Kerr, I believe.
that video is the best representation of KM i’ve ever seen 🙄
btw, i’d pick and mma fighter over almost anyone in option 3 (see the post or verbal de) but in options 1 or 2, KM is king…
That was intersting. It always seem to become a \”Bruce Lee Vs. ***\” argument in martial arts.
I agree with GiantKiller and John W. that the sparring aspect is very important in training. There is nothing like the look on someone’s face who has never experianced contact when they get one in the grill the first time. PRICELESS.
MMA alone is not enough for me for self-defense. My attacker will likely be much larger than me and stronger. Even possibly stronger smelling! Anywho… I love Krav Maga and that is what is important for me. I need to know how to turn a disadvantage to my advantage. Krav does this, it puts me in the worst position and teaches me that I CAN defend myself.
To some degree general MMA can also help with this but as a woman I need to know how to defend myself from particular situations like rape scenarios, edged weapon, gun defenses, etc… That’s what scares me and Krav Maga gives me more control of that.
Thanks KMNTC!
I own a Krav Maga school and crosstrain at a MT / MMA gym. No one at my school takes Krav to prepare for the ring, and I have yet to talk to anyone at the MMA gym who is there strictly for RBSD…. just an observation.
I think Carl Cestari said it best here:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Its-Not-a-Matter-of-Who-is-Right&id=21605
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