Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

[giant-killer]

Generally, when we practice choke from the front, we make a pluck and send a groin kick at the exact same time. Specifically, if you were to watch it in slow motion, the kick would start to rise as the plucking motion begins. While this will ensure that the kick will get there as fast as possible, I have to admit, I find that lifting my leg just as I start my pluck seems to weaken my defense a bit and possibly my kick as well. It also tends lo leave me off balance as I’m making my plucking motion, potentially giving the attacker a chance to push me back before I can complete it.

If, instead, I make the pluck with both legs still on the ground, then lift my leg about a split second later, just as soon as the pressure has come off my throat, I find the pluck to be a lot stronger and the kick seems to feel stronger as well.

Yes, it will get there a bit later, but we are talking maybe a split second and if you do both motions fast and surprise your attacker with your actions, it would be unlikely that he would have any chance to react.

So, I’m wondering, which is better, making the counter as fast as possible, but potentially compromising the strength of the pluck (the part of the defense that addresses the danger), balance as well as the strength of the counter? Or waiting just a split second longer, lifting the leg near the end of the defensive motion instead of the beginning and possibly improving the power of both the defense and counter?

Of course, one argument for always practicing a simultaneous motion would be that in a real fight you will be surprised and probably late, so you may end up leaving a moment between defense and counter anyway, so better to practice doing both motions as close in time as possible in training.

So, would either method be acceptable, or is one much preferred over the other? Has anyone else experienced that the pluck and kick seem stronger if done just a split second apart? Or is it just me?

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Giantkiller

[cmetalman]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Giant Killer, IMHO I would deal with the threat first and then immediately go for the groin kick or knee depending on the distance, What if the pluck didn’t work then the counter move might make the choker tense up and crush your throat. Again I could be wrong

[giant-killer]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Yes, the thought about the attacker tensing up and crushing your throat if the kick hits him early has been mentioned to us as well and would be another argument for delaying the counter just slightly, so you can be sure that the pluck has worked and the pressure is off before hurting the bad guy.

However, generally, when we practice this, the pluck and kick are supposed to be given simultaneously and you will be corrected by the teacher if you fail to do this. I guess one of the reasons is that it is one of the principles of KM to give a simultaneous counter whenever possible, as we also do in knife and stick defenses. However, in those cases the immediate counter works great and does not compromise my defense. With the choke defense on the other hand, I feel that a short delay between pluck and kick can make my defense as well as offense stronger and may therefore be worth doing.

Just something I’ve noticed and I was curious to hear if others had experienced it, too.

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Giantkiller

[miriam]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote cmetalman:

Giant Killer, IMHO I would deal with the threat first and then immediately go for the groin kick or knee depending on the distance, What if the pluck didn’t work then the counter move might make the choker tense up and crush your throat. Again I could be wrong

Well, cmetalman, in YHO and IMHO, you are correct. Having just finished Phase training, that point was specifically addressed and is fresh in my memory. If the pluck doesn’t work, your trachea can absolutely be crushed within a mere moment. And if that’s the case, a crushing ball kick just ain’t gonna bring you back from the dead, eh? :OhMy:

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Having been choked from the front a number of times in real situations, I must point out something that I feel is a bit lacking in the KM training, which is that when you are being choked the attack generally drives you backwards or shakes you sideways at the same time. As a result I’d say that it’s best to first pluck and then counter while he’s still off balance and driving towards you.

If you try to kick at the same time you could well find yourself being pushed over.

That’s just my opinion from a few experiences I’ve had. People don’t just stand there passively and try to choke you like we practise in KM class.

I do really wish that we’d practise occasionally doing techniques with the attacker being as aggressive as possible.

[mara-jade]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote Liquid Rockface:

Having been choked from the front a number of times in real situations, I must point out something that I feel is a bit lacking in the KM training, which is that when you are being choked the attack generally drives you backwards or shakes you sideways at the same time. As a result I’d say that it’s best to first pluck and then counter while he’s still off balance and driving towards you.

If you try to kick at the same time you could well find yourself being pushed over.

That’s just my opinion from a few experiences I’ve had. People don’t just stand there passively and try to choke you like we practise in KM class.

I do really wish that we’d practise occasionally doing techniques with the attacker being as aggressive as possible.

I might be missing something here but KM DOES deal with that. Besides, choke from the front (1 handed and 2 pluck), there’s also choke from the front with a push as well as choke from the back with a push. I would think those techniques would address your concern.:wav:

Also, if you’re in a class with newbies, it’s easy for them to NOT realize they’re not yet agressive enough. This has happened to me and hubby on several occasions. I ask the guys to choke me, and I’m getting a shoulder massage:D:

[mara-jade]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

I also meant to post about choke from the side and choke from the back with a pull, but forgot. Some of the techniques I mentioned I hope address at least a few of your concerns.

[prekarious1]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Another option.
Once you notice that the choke is coming and you can’t get out of the way fast enough, plant you legs with your strong side foot slightly behind you. With your weak side hand pluck the elbow of the attacker forcing a bend in his arm at the elbow and using your strong side hand hit with a palm strike to nose (or fist to throat if enough room). Has worked many times and you never need to worry about losing balance because of having a foot off the ground.

[giant-killer]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Yes, we practice the one-handed pluck with palm strike as well. The possibility of being pushed back is another problem for me, as I’m not very flexible raising my leg in front of me and to compensate I might have to lean back a little, making it easier for the attacker to push me over. If I do the pluck first, I can stay stable, then once his hands and weight are off me, I can kick more safely.

As for a strong push, mara is right, there is another defense you can do. That defense actually works when you are just standing as well, you can step back with one foot, then shoot one arm up and turn to the side, releasing the attacker’s grip. It may be a stronger defense, but it’s less instinctive, which is why the pluck is usually taught first.

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Giantkiller

[mike-g]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

If you pluck at the elbow to force a bend in the arm ,what do you do if the choke is applied with the arms already bent?

[crazy-train]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

you pluck at your attackers thumbs, not his elbows. so, if his elbows are bent, or not, you pluck at the thumbs, and as long as you are using speed and suprise, you’ll get his grip off of you enough to breath and to attack.

[prekarious1]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote mike_g:

If you pluck at the elbow to force a bend in the arm ,what do you do if the choke is applied with the arms already bent?

not a kravist so my answers will usually be a bit different.
If the attackers arms are already bent you can still do the same move. Reason I prefer elbow to thumbs is bigger target area so greater chance of success with the move under stressful situations (generally). Also with the attacker being straight armed, forcing the bend in his arm will also bring him closer to you increasing the force of your attack

[crazy-train]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

i pose this question….say your attacker is stronger than you, and is REALLY choking you. do you think that a pluck at the elbows is going to do much to his hands around your throat? i have tried this scenario many times for demonstrations, and i usually fail to clear my throat if i pluck at the elbows, but i am always successful when plucking at the attacker’s thumbs. as for the comments made about the one handed pluck technique, it works well if you are uncomfortable with the kick, and the pushing choke techniques work very well stationary, or with any amount of force that would push you. as for increasing the strength of your attack, that is why you “burst” in to your attacker with multiple strikes. the strength of these strikes increases as you practice them more and more in class.

[giant-killer]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Hmmm, I don’t know if a pluck at the elbow would work well. As crazy said, it wouldn’t really get the thumbs off your throat and thus wouldn’t address the danger. It might get the attacker a bit off balance though, but not sure that would be enough.

Also, to be really strong with their choke, wouldn’t most attackers bend their arms anyway? If you really want to hurt someone, seems that you are stronger with your arms bent than with your arms straight.

I’ve heard of another method against a choke, in which you can either push underneath the attacker’s chin to push his head back, or “rake” his face with your fingers, that are bent into a type of claw. If his arms are bent, this will push him back, weakening the choke, or it may even make him let go. Something else to try, if you can’t make the other choke defenses work for some reason (possibly because he is extremely strong).

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Giantkiller

[mike-g]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

I knew the Krav answer but wanted to see what Prekarious1’s answer was. The technique he describes can work for him because of his size,strength, or ferocity in which he executes it.There are a lot of valid techniques for choke defenses outside of Krav but they don’t fit Krav principles because they aren’t instinctive or aren’t able to be performed by anyone regardless of size or strength. Most of the time they are learned responses that take a lot of practice to become proficient. That doesn’t mean once learned that they won’t work but you have to be able to execute it under pressure….side note (or back on topic)… The choke from the front with a push defense will work on a regular choke from the front elbows bent or not but it’s not as instinctive as the pluck if your standing still.

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