Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

[prekarious1]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

if opponent is obviously stronger another option is to use your elbow coming down on top of his. Have used it to great effect and have seen it not useful at all. I know that the few times I have tried going for hands or anything like that in a practical situation it didn’t work out so well for me.
Hitting the elbow may not do much for the hands on your thoat, but surprise and quickness make up for that quite nicely.

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

I’m sorry but if your opponent is obviously stronger, then hitting down on his elbows with yours is NOT what you want to try. We learnt that technique in class, I was very sceptical, and I proved that not matter how hard my opponent hit down on my elbows, I could maintain the choke with ease. I honestly didn’t feel the strikes affect me at all! It is only with a lot of “co-operation” that your opponent’s hands get released due to his elbows being pushed down by yours.

Just my experience…

[ryan]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Mike’s points are spot on…Surprise and quickness are useless if the actions don’t address the immediate danger and/or do damage. Plucking at the elbows will do nothing to alleviate the choke, and it actually may cause an incidental headbutt.

[prekarious1]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

we obviously have seen different results with this one then.
and whats wrong with an incidental head butt? if you hit hard enough to cause that then you should be expecting it and ready. I know that some people are simply adverse to headbutts but they are effective

[bradm]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

In the classroom we practiced front chokes standing still, being pushed and against an object like a wall, car or something. With the pushing choke or against the wall we learned the “windmill” type release – lifting one arm straight up by the ear and rotating the body (stepping back with the opposite leg if possible). I have never seen this fail to break a choke even with a very big strong man against a small female. I have, however, seen the pluck fail when a big 200+ lb male is choking a very small female. And this is in the classroom. What would happen in real life, in the street? In real life, in the street, a guy is not just to stand there and choke you waiting fou you to do something. He is trying to harm you, he is going to charge at you grab your throat visciously, pushing you back trying to force you against a wall, vehicle, or bend you backwards until you fall to the ground. With a big man choking a small female in this manner she will most likely be passed out in 3-5 seconds and dead in 20. A palm heel to the face or a kick to the groin from a small female probably won’t have much effect on a 200+ lb monster, hyped up on something.

I’m not saying the pluck is not effective, because it is very effective under the right circumstances. There has to be more in our arsenal other that pluck and groin strike. The windmill, eye gouges, multiple quick strikes to the eyes, biting, etc.

[crazy-train]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

the “more in our arsenal other than pluck and groin strike” i would have to say is aggressiveness, and a basic instinct to survive, all honed at your local krav maga training center

[evo8]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote Giant Killer:

Also, to be really strong with their choke, wouldn’t most attackers bend their arms anyway? If you really want to hurt someone, seems that you are stronger with your arms bent than with your arms straight.

_________________
Giantkiller

THis reminds me of a time in a level 3 class that Brent was teaching. It was a choke from the front against the wall when you can’t do the pluck and have to do the other one that’s like the choke with a push where you reach up with on arm and down with the other and rotate. anyway, i was having trouble completing the technique because my partner had his arms bent outward which prevented me from turning. I asked Brent and he said if the attacker’s arms are bent that way then he can’t really cut the air off. the angle is wrong for the thumbs to press in. Sure enough, even with a lot of pressure from my partner, i could still breathe okay. Not a lot of immediate danger and you can just counter attack right away. From then on, my partner straightened out his arms.

Oh yeah, this was a long time ago, but that’s how i remembered it. Please tell me if i am wrong as i haven’t taken krav in a long period of time.

[giant-killer]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Hmmm, not sure, this might be true against a wall, because the attacker might push all of his weight forward in that situation, using the victim’s throat (and the wall behind him/her) as a type of base. In that case, he may be able to transfer more weight when his arms are straight.

If there’s no wall and the attacker is a lot bigger, I do think it may be more natural for him (and possibly stronger) to keep the arms bent, at least a little, which would also bring him closer to his victim.

I guess if the pluck doesn’t work, you can switch to the windmill quickly. It’s just that the pluck is most instinctive and probably the first thing you’ll do anyway, have your hands fly to your throat to loosen the attacker’s grip. The windmill is considered the stronger exercise as far as I know, so if the pluck won’t do it, you can switch to that one.

Another thing someone else taught me was to use your hand to either push underneath the attacker’s chin, making his head go back, or “rake” across his face with your fingers and nails, scratching his eyes. He might let go as a result, but even if he doesn’t, it should create some space and push him back, weakening the choke enough to then switch to the windmill and complete the defense.

Another, more Jiu Jitsu type defense I’ve seen, is to simply duck underneath one of the attacker’s outstretched arms and come back up on the other side. Not sure how well it works, though.

_________________
Giantkiller

[ryan]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

If you’re on the receiving end of the headbutt, there’s a lot wrong with it. A principle of KM is to not trade one danger for another, and while we deal with the immediate danger, we must also consider secondary dangers.

Let me ask you this, when you pluck at the elbows, what happens?

[prekarious1]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote Ryan:

If you’re on the receiving end of the headbutt, there’s a lot wrong with it. A principle of KM is to not trade one danger for another, and while we deal with the immediate danger, we must also consider secondary dangers.

Let me ask you this, when you pluck at the elbows, what happens?

distance closes if done with enough force. his attention goes to the arm that is being attacked, hopefully his eyes do as well. not sure what answer your looking for here

[ryan]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

Sorry, I don’t get it. The defense you describe relies on power/strength, it doesn’t eliminate the danger, and it doesn’t do damage to the attacker. It is an inefficient motion, and the defender is still being choked. I just don’t understand this approach.

[dave-the-wave]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

quote BradM:

In the classroom we practiced front chokes standing still, being pushed and against an object like a wall, car or something. With the pushing choke or against the wall we learned the “windmill” type release – lifting one arm straight up by the ear and rotating the body (stepping back with the opposite leg if possible). I have never seen this fail to break a choke even with a very big strong man against a small female. I have, however, seen the pluck fail when a big 200+ lb male is choking a very small female. And this is in the classroom.

Hey guys, I don’t attend a school but I have the book and videos and have been incorporating Krav Maga into my heavy bag workouts. Brad brought up a point here that I have been wondering about myself. In the videos when I see the pluck vs. the windmill type defense against the choke it seems to me that it is much more effective and produces a great deal more power.

I did attend a seminar recently (wich I really enjoyed) and the pluck was reviewed extensively but not the “windmill” type release.

What are the advantages of the pluck over this other release?

Thanks

[ryan]

Re: Choke from the front – pros and cons of simultaneous counter

The pluck is taught first because the movements are more instinctive than the other defense. Also, since Krav Maga is an integrated system, you’ll see the plucking motion in many different defenses, which makes it easier to get students to a level of proficiency quickly.

I hope this helps.

[Author]

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