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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6Ujdi4Lu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN7CydJqGRk
Lets see how many spot the hypocrisy. Watch the 1st vid, then the 2nd….you may see it at the very beginning, but pay attention to the 1:24 mark or so. I’ll leave you with this hint…PT is like the parent of blade arts in FMA and most drills are interrelated or common to all.
mike
Re: Criticizing krav knife
I watched both videos – but I’m not sure what you mean with hypocrisy (?)..
Maybe you could elaborate further?
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending that one has beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings,
qualities or standards that they do not actually have; this is usually done in order to mask their actual motives or feelings; falseness.1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Yeah, I wasn’t thrilled with that choice of word either, but wasn’t smart enough to think of a better one.
Pekiti tirsia is like the parent art of FMA or at least lays down most of the important teaching, structure and drills. All blade systems seem to have come from it. Sayoc kali most well known because of “The Hunted”. FMA’s have differences but their interelated. Meaning once you learn a Tapping drill one place it won’t be “much” different another.
Looking at the PT tapping video you’ll see the krav defense used a few times albeit with a palm strike. I’d bet you a wooden nickel that before Mr Inay started demoing “Bad” krav knife defenses in his seminar that they did Tapping drills. Its fundamental to the subject
I found it odd that he put down a KRAV defense that I first saw in FMA and I know he uses in Tapping drills and sparring. Krav knife defenses are solid and fundamentally sound. , but FMA is probably the master class on the subject. if you can keep away from all the glittery crap.
Re: Criticizing krav knife
In the first video, the defender was not making a proper KM knife defense against an upward stab. The defender did not execute a proper 360-degrees #7 defense… he was standing erect and didn’t have his elbow bent at 90-degrees. In addition, the defender didn’t aggressively attack the knife wielder’s wrist nor push the knife wielder’s arm outward and backward. The bottom line here is that it is a false example of a KM knife defense.
In the second video, the KM knife principle of blocking and striking was used.
Re: Criticizing krav knife
I also don’t see “hypocrisy”, especially since the videos seem to have been presented by different people. Where in either video did “criticizing krav knife” take place? :dunno:
Re: Criticizing krav knife
quote Don:I also don’t see “hypocrisy”… Where in either video did “criticizing krav knife” take place? :dunno:I don’t understand the hypocrisy comment either. In the first video… according to the person that uploaded the video (jabbertones)… Mr. Inay is supposed to be showing how “Krav Maga’s basic defense is defended.”
The second video made no mention of KM.
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Actually, the title was Krav vs Inay Escrima.. I pretty sure Inay escrima was the guys fathers expression of Serrada, but I haven’t been paying attention to any of this crap for over a year and could be wrong. Mike Inay was a very respected escrimador
The first is a great lesson as is the second. And yes they are different sources. But the FMA’s are really interelated as far as the drilling goes..you will find differences in how they number strikes, but the strikes and blocks are the same…more along the lines of same subject, different teaching modality
Its very common in the MA community to use krav to promote another system…knife defenses seems to be a big target, by criticism. To me the hypocrisy is taking a movement and a princple that is in your system out of context and using it to self promote by titling it Krav Maga vs Inay Escrima. Especialy when that same movement and concept is in the FMA’s. Though the lesson is valid the marketing left a bit to be desired
Its also good to see the use of the krav movement iin the second vid in Pikiti Tirsia or the FMA’s because when it comes to the knife its the standard and it offers validation
As I said Hypocrisy may not have been a good choice of words as I was looking to open up a dialogue about the videos and the application themselves
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Duhhh, I see now. I wasn’t paying any attention to the written text. I wonder if Mike Inay posted or even knows about the video titled the way it is.
I also agree that it’s much easier to counter or find “holes” or “weaknesses” in a technique when it’s not being done properly or at full speed/strength (which the blocks/strikes in the 1st video are NOT).
On the flip side, I think it would be interesting to explore (after being comfortable/proficient in the basic defenses/techniques) such possibilities as what if the BG attempts to block or trap your striking hand (i.e. the BG has a trained “live” hand), what if the BG has an edged weapon in each hand, etc…
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Cool..i thought in trying to start a conversation, I lost everybody
Mike Inay is deceased thats the son. He’s highly respected. Its a matter of how it was titled and the intention of it.
Also performed outta context…My very limited understanding of krav defenses is their oh crap, I’m being attacked…not mutual agreed upon combats….meaning last ditch efforts, not even knowing there was a knife
Absolutely on the flip side thing. Thats whats great about the 1st vid..seeing it from another perspective. sean has a background in FMA’s
I really like both systems
mike
quote Don:Duhhh, I see now. I wasn’t paying any attention to the written text. I wonder if Mike Inay posted or even knows about the video titled the way it is.I also agree that it’s much easier to counter or find “holes” or “weaknesses” in a technique when it’s not being done properly or at full speed/strength (which the blocks/strikes in the 1st video are NOT).
On the flip side, I think it would be interesting to explore (after being comfortable/proficient in the basic defenses/techniques) such possibilities as what if the BG attempts to block or trap your striking hand (i.e. the BG has a trained “live” hand), what if the BG has an edged weapon in each hand, etc…
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Aha – ok, I see..well, there do seem to be these vids that go up ‘Krav vs X’ typically with someone not trained in the system executing a move which couldn’t even be considered KM to illustrate the point of why their own system is superior. Its ridiculous & unfair but hopefuly some observers will be able to see past the BS.
As for pulling a KM-like move in the 2cnd clip, well I guess there’s really only so many ways to logically block an attack anyway. FWIW – the US military 1943 hand to hand combat classic ‘Kill or Get Killed’ by Col. Rex Applegate has basic knife defenses / blocks with a similarity to KM developed in conjunction with William Fairbairn who’d worked with the Shanghai police dept & trained in M.A. Given the time frame its certainly possible that some of these hand to hand principles were studied and incorporated into the system by the developers of KM. Even the ‘Body Balance in Attack’ on pg 13 in KOBK bears more than a passing resemblance to the KM fighting stance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Applegate
Anyway – there’s nothing wrong with borrowing ideas, its typical to borrow, refine & adapt ideas..there’s even a term for the spread of ideas – ‘meme’:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
A meme (pronounced /ˈmiːm/, rhyming with “cream”[1]), is a postulated unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, and is transmitted from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena. ] Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes, in that they self-replicate and respond to selective pressures.[3]
Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity’s reproductive success. Memes spread through the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread, and (for better or for worse) mutate. Theorists point out that memes which replicate the most effectively spread best, and some memes may replicate effectively even when they prove detrimental to the welfare of their hosts.[5]Getting back to knife attacks & KM – it seems clear to me that KM knife defenses are highly effective because of their simplicity and connection to natural, instinctive reactions.
If you look at this selection of (mostly) CCTV footage from ‘real life’ knife attacks – in almost all cases the attack comes totally out of the blue. Any reasonable person would have to conclude that this would be the form an attack they might face would take.
IMO I don’t see how other systems that assume scenarios where both parties ‘square off’ for the battle possibly even with one person having pulled out their ‘defensive’ knife, have much relevance to a self defense perspective that reflects what really occurs on the street.
In this 1st clip the BG suddenly pulls out a huge knife around 3:12 and narrowly misses sinking it into the officer’s neck who has a very close shave indeed. BTW apparently this guy had just been picked up roaming the streets brandishing a samurai sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3lsCfayJ5E
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/266722…_knife_attack/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suNKWwPnkJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlb6qGyblR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9q1IElo8v4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4KROpdUkrM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=778010752e
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5bfb9ec743
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17f_1173654313
Re: Criticizing krav knife
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic
This is the moment when a heroic policeman came within inches of a crazed knifeman plunging a six-inch blade into his neck.Only the lightning reactions of officer Jon Croft prevented paranoid schizophrenic Jason Lord driving the knife into the policeman’s flesh.
PC Croft said that he felt lucky to be alive after he managed to grab Lord’s wrist and pin him back as colleagues leapt to his defence at Paignton custody centre.
CCTV footage of the attack came to light when Lord was sentenced at Exeter Crown Court yesterday. He pleaded guilty to wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm and two charges of carrying an offensive weapon.
Judge Graham Cottle said: “This was a potentially murderous attack on a police officer. That knife would have been in the officer’s neck had it not been for his incredibly quick reactions and those of his colleagues. They saved a tragedy from happening.”
Lord had previous convictions for carrying a knife, assault, racist violence, vandalism and robbery. He was detained indefinitely under the Mental Health Act. He will be released from a secure hospital only with the Home Secretary’s approval.
The court was told PC Croft was part of a team of two who attended Paignton Esplanade in August last year after reports that Lord had been knocked over by cyclists taking part in a race. Witnesses said he was carrying a Samurai sword.
The two policeman quickly confirmed that Lord had the weapon and arrested the 22-year-old student, of no fixed abode.
The officers handcuffed the suspect and conducted a brief search before transporting him to Paignton police station.
It was in the tiny custody room, which measures just 4ft by 2ft, that PC Croft began to carry out a more thorough search. He removed the handcuffs, demanding that Lord place his hands on the counter.
But while he was searching Lord’s pockets, the offender swiftly drew the blade from his waistband and swung around at the officer.
Speaking after the hearing, PC Croft, 42, said the attack happened at “bullet” speed.
He added: “Everything was in slow motion.
“My training teaches me to move back in a situation like that, but because of the confined space, I didn’t have that option.
“You make those split-second risk assessments, and this time I was lucky.”
PC Croft said he felt uneasy during the search: “I was behind him and there was something unusual about him. He kept wanting to drop his hands. As I was searching him, he just spun around.
“It was a very fast risk assessment. I realised that if I moved back, he was going to get me. I could do nothing but block and tackle.”
He went on: “As I grabbed him, I can remember trying to articulate a word to let people know what was happening, but I just let out a roar.”
He praised the quick reflexes of his colleagues, one of whom vaulted over the counter and down a 5ft drop to help PC Croft to pin his attacker to the wall.
Now PC Croft and two of his colleagues, Detention Officer John Pratt and Custody Sergeant Ian Symons, have been recommended for commendations.
Yesterday, Torbay Chief Inspector Stuart Lander said the narrow escape highlighted the dangers that front-line police officers faced every day.
He added: “Policing can be a difficult and dangerous occupation. Officers don’t always get the credit for the kind of role they fulfil. These circumstances quite clearly demonstrate that on occasion, police officers get put in harm’s way in order to keep our community safe.
“We are extremely proud of what Jon and his colleagues did in demonstrating a very professional response to what was a life-threatening situation. Thankfully, such incidents are not that common.”
John Smith, chairman of the Devon and Cornwall Police Authority, yesterday said that the everyday bravery of officers was sometimes overlooked.
“I have often attended award ceremonies for headline-grabbing rescues where officers have stopped someone from drowning or pulled a casualty from a burning building.
“But the public is not as good at recognising the day-to-day level of heroism. If a police officer stops a car, for example, they don’t know what kind of situation they are walking into. That takes something pretty special.”
Re: Criticizing krav knife
http://www.filecabi.net/video/vkmanstabswoman.html
Never seen that one wow. What kind of half a** efforts to help that woman was that….and then they let her drop to floor bleeding to death. Are you **** kidding me… makes my blood curl. I sincerely hope she did survive as it says on the video.
What country/language is that??
Re: Criticizing krav knife
Well Iíll say it since he wont Dons bg in FMA makes mine look like I watched a video and trained at home.
The biggest thing that always annoys me when making this type of comparison is people forget one very essential thing. KM is a RBSD system meant to take the average guy and bring him up to speed quickly in an ìambushî type threat not a duel. OF COURSE FMAís are better but they also arenít instinctive and reactive the same as KM is.
I LOVE k/k and WoO/IW and if push comes to shove Iím deploying and doing straight Mark Denny hack and carve but in an ìoh sh1tî itís a KM open hand defense first then FMA kicks in.
Re: Criticizing krav knife
quote kvmorl:http://www.filecabi.net/video/vkmanstabswoman.htmlNever seen that one wow. What kind of half a** efforts to help that woman was that….and then they let her drop to floor bleeding to death. Are you **** kidding me… makes my blood curl. I sincerely hope she did survive as it says on the video.
What country/language is that??
Yeah that one is extremely ugly.. its in Holland – Rotterdam or The Hague I think. They’re speaking Dutch but also some guys are speaking Turkish to each other at certain points. The dialogue at the beginning is people on the cellphone to 911 calling the police – in the background other people are screaming at the guy to stop.They also tell her to sit down – that’s the point when she collapses.
Its amazing how feeble the kicks appear to be – I assume it has something to do with the adrenaline levels surging..
This one is the stuff of nightmares..
Re: Criticizing krav knife
quote CJs Dad:Well Iíll say it since he wont Dons bg in FMA makes mine look like I watched a video and trained at home.NEG A TIVE SIR! I just know a few of the more popular terms: tuhon, guro, gunting, 12345-12, whoobud, doo rag, sombrero, new mercado, computer paula, I spotted a doggie, etc… I think I have a video with you in it somewhere in my library… thumbsup
The biggest thing that always annoys me when making this type of comparison is people forget one very essential thing. KM is a RBSD system meant to take the average guy and bring him up to speed quickly in an ìambushî type threat not a duel. OF COURSE FMAís are better but they also arenít instinctive and reactive the same as KM is.
I LOVE k/k and WoO/IW and if push comes to shove Iím deploying and doing straight Mark Denny hack and carve but in an ìoh sh1tî itís a KM open hand defense first then FMA kicks in.
Agreed. And, like everyone is saying, anyone “serious” with a knife won’t let you see it first. “A knife is meant to be felt, not seen.” is philosophy held by many* old school FMA edged weapons instructors (* I am ASSuming here).
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