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Okay, I know this is going to sound really stupid to some of you. But I’m coming up against a sort of moral conflict in Krav and I hope some of your more experienced folks might have some wise words of advise to help me come to terms with it.
In the Krav class I attend, there are about an equal number of male and female students most times, but there have been times when one of the sexes might outnumber the other, so one must pair up with the opposite sex sometimes to do drills. Some of the drills can get pretty intense, as you guys all know, and one may have to actually hit a female partner pretty hard to get the drill right.
My conflict arises, I think, from two things: I’m born and raised a Southern gentleman- we don’t hit a woman; the other is seeing women in my childhood abused by their husbands and/or fathers. It has become pretty difficult for me to focus past these personal issues to really do what I know I should do for the sake for both me and my partner’s training.
I also am a pretty big guy: 6’1” and 260 lbs of solid meat, so I can pack a good punch and have some fairly brutal kicks. I have yet to hit any of the opposite sex in training with a full on punch or kick, for fear of hurting them. I know this may sound terribly old fashioned and even sexist to some of you, but this is a deep issue for me, and isn’t something that can be put aside easily.
Anyone else run into this issue in training? And, if so, how did you deal with it?Re: Hitting women
Think of it as “How can I help this person train?”. Thats your role as a partner. Try to guage what level of force you should use as with ANY partner. Do you go full force against a 130lb 65 year old man? Maybe you go harder against a 220lb 28 year old? What difference is it if your partner is a woman? She is there to train like all of us and learn something and REALITY IS SHE IS MORE LIKELY TO NEED IT THAN YOU.
Who is going to start with you at your size? Very few realistcally. On the other hand, your female partner is much more likely to need the training.
As for the other issues you mention…you have an obligation to your partner to help her train. Going “easy” will not help her. Going full force may not either so you must judge and go by what your partner tells you.
Re: Hitting women
I train with women a lot some mild mannered some hardcore. I too am a larger sized person who Iím told can sometimes be intimidating to work with.
What works for me when working with women or even significantly smaller men is I work on my form/speed/control. To the extent Iíve had a few women get aggravated that I wasnít going harder on them because they were a girl.
I use it as an opportunity for focus on my form because I donít need to prove to anyone I can hit hard. So try slowing yourself down and being perfect with the defense or attack. I doubt anyone will look down on you for working on correct punching or kicking technique.
Just my .02
Re: Hitting women
Just as a point of clarification I wasn’t suggesting you not choke them hard etc I absolutely think they need to feel the pressure.
I meant if they were holding pads for you or light sparring where you have to hit them.
Re: Hitting women
Nicholas, that is a great question, and I wanted to share my experience and thoughts on this important issue.
First, the advice by Sean and KMMAN below is perfect! I agree with them, but want to add that, IMHO,the most important factor in the male/female training partnership is COMMUNICATION. Both partners have a responsibility to themselves and to the other person to let his/her partner know if the amount of force being used is too much or too little. On the flip side, if you’re not sure if you’re going too hard or too soft, you need to ask your partner. I don’t think one can – nor should – assume how much a woman (or a man) can take based on size. I’ve seen exceptions to both of the assumptions that a bigger person is naturally able to take more and a smaller person, less. Also, one other dangerous assumption is thinking that just because a woman is at krav, or is at a certain higher level, that she can take or wants to take a high amount of force from her partner. Conversely, it’s bad to assume the opposite. That’s why communication is so vital.
In my experience, partnering with guys is better training for the obvious reason that it makes it more real, since the reality is I’m more likely to be attacked by a man. However, I have had a few experiences where a male partner is really letting me have it, & I’ve asked him to ease up, but nothing changes. It made my experience when I was new to level 3 somewhat unpleasant, but I simply changed partners and avoided the guy thereafter.(which was better than my other thought at the time: intentionally missing the pad on a groin kick.)
The fact that you – or any guy – is aware of the potential issues/challenges training with a woman, is likely going to make you a great partner!!
Re: Hitting women
quote CJs Dad:What works for me when working with women or even significantly smaller men is I work on my form/speed/control. To the extent Iíve had a few women get aggravated that I wasnít going harder on them because they were a girl.
Just my .02I had that happen one time at a trial class. I out weieghed this girl by 100LBs, so I worked on form. Every drill this girl just bitching at me that she could take it and I wasn’t helping her by going easy. I tried to explain that i wasn’t going easy for her, but for me. She wouldn’t have it and was getting more annoying be the minute. I even pulled the instructor over. Didn’t work.
We started doing a push kick drill. Every kick she was on me, till I caught the pad clean at about half power or so. Launched her accross the room and into the wall. Result seperated shoulder and a concussion. Heres the thing all her friends were pissed at me for going to easy on her. Then they were pissed that I went too hard:dunno: I never went back. Though the instructor and I are friends
Like Sean, I’ve worked out with women that were hardcore. Way tougher than me. Been in gyms with Bridgett Riley and Lily Rodriquez. Way outta my league. Did grappling classes with 100lb women who just outworked me. Mostly I was looking for oxygen and a walker.
I’m not going to be PC here, cause I’m not trying to get laidrofl2Just teasing. :jerry:Working out with women is always going to be a touch harder than with men. Size disparity plays a role as do social norms. But there is also another dynamic that doesn’t get discussed much, which is the underlying reason that a woman may be in the gym.
I’ve met alot of women,as in the case of the trial class, that were there because they’ve been abused or raped. This changes the whole dynamic of partnering. Trust and victimhood become issues we have no clues of.
In the end, partnering whether with an opposite sex or same sex partner is a relationship. And relationships always have bumps. In the end your at class to train yourself and to protect or take care of your partner. So like Sean says working with a smaller partner is an excellent way to work on mechanics. Much overlooked by the majority. And if the partner( male or female) doesn’t like the way your training…too bad. Its not about them, its about you.
also, there is a difference whether society sees it that way or not, of abusing a woman or hitting one to protect or being abused yourself. If i can find them I got some great videos that might change your mind on things
mike
Re: Hitting women
As a woman here’s my two cents: we should all feel comfortable enough in class to be able to ask to switch partners for whatever reason. If you don’t feel you have the self-control to do your drill without hurting your partner, imho you’re obligated to ask for a switch.
As for getting used to hitting women, in your case it’s probably not something you will come up against much. For smaller men, a badass woman might indeed take him on. My one use of krav was against a woman, and a female security guard at work had her nose broken by a woman. Would these women also go after a man? I bet if they thought they could “take him” they would. If you men think of us as all delicate flowers who need to be protected, you might be unpleasantly surprised one day. Check out the stats in this article:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/144
quote :When the fight took place between a man and a woman,
ï 46 percent involved women attacking men
ï 45 percent of female-onmale attacks were successful.Re: Hitting women
Everything that is being suggested really should be for ANY partners not just male vs female. Clearly you cant go through training killing all your partners. There is a point of extreme (I know, we’ll see a different concept on Fight Quest) but Im hoping the US schools dont take whatever we see tomorrow as gospel.
Re: Hitting women
Could someone define “full force” for me in a training environment? To me, full force means a fight to win, hitting or kicking with full force in a training environment sounds very dangerous and rediculous to me. If everyone hit or kicked their partners with full force soon everyone would be hurt and no students left in the class.
Re: Hitting women
I thought that was why you used pads, BradM. I’ve been advised that aggression means hitting all out during some drills. And, to my mind, hitting all out for an extended period of time is how you build up your resistance to fatigue. Maybe I’m wrong. I also work with some MMA guys in Krav and they, believe me, hit full force every single time.
Re: Hitting women
quote BradM:Could someone define “full force” for me in a training environment? To me, full force means a fight to win, hitting or kicking with full force in a training environment sounds very dangerous and rediculous to me. If everyone hit or kicked their partners with full force soon everyone would be hurt and no students left in the class.Brad from my POV its about hitting pads and drills. Sean’s a big guy, who is a heavy hitter. If I put focus mitts on and he goes full force, I might have trouble holding pads for him cause I have wrist pain. Or 100lb’er might get knocked accross the room all day. Sean is smart enough to feel out his training partners and work accordingly. Some folks misunderstand this, but he’s working out intelligently
As Miriam points out some partners are inconsiderate. If you tell them to backoff a bit, they don’t or blame you for ruining their workout. Then throw in the sex dynamic and won’t workout with women. Which is bad for all.
Partnering up is a big deal. I think one of the best things you can do is before the workout define a focus. What you want to work on that day and find an appropriate partner. Most people go to class, hang with their buds and work on their egos( try to look good)
I’m usually pretty friendly and crack jokes, but when I was training sometimes I’d go into a class and not talk to my partner much. Focusing on mechanics and feel. Also trying to avoid tendecies of both parties to instruct. What happens because we’re humans is we have the tendency to tell everyone else how it should be done. In the end your there to train for yourself. So you have to leave your partner alone as well.
Watch in your next class the amount of unsolicited coaching you and everyone else gives around you. Its interesting
Hope this helps
Re: Hitting women
quote Nickolas Cook:I thought that was why you used pads, BradM. I’ve been advised that aggression means hitting all out during some drills. And, to my mind, hitting all out for an extended period of time is how you build up your resistance to fatigue. Maybe I’m wrong. I also work with some MMA guys in Krav and they, believe me, hit full force every single time.Yes, but what happens if you work that same drill and focus on form. What happens in those drills is at some point the lowercase starts to get lost. If you make the focus form you start really improving your resistence to fatique.
Re: Hitting women
I really like what Miriam said. Communication should be key anytime you’re training with someone. I’m fairly new to Krav, so I’ve been taking an intro fight class. When I’m in there, I spar against men and women of different skill levels. Whenever I partner up with anybody, whether I feel they are stronger or weaker than me, after my first punch or kick, I’ll ask them (as clearly as I can with my mouth guard in), “Is that about right?”. That way I’m not making an assumption about what my partner wants/needs with their training and I think it’s made for a much more productive and professional training environment for me.
A lot of times guys from the advanced fight class will come in as a refresher/warm-up. Whenever I get partnered up with them, they set their level of aggression/power off of me. It’s always challenging, but they end up telling me things I’m doing wrong and keep it to a point where I don’t just feel like I’m a human punching bag. Some people might see it as condecending if you try to tell them what they’re doing wrong, but personaly it really helps me out.
I understand that sometimes it’s difficult to get over the “hitting a girl” barrier, but I find it so much easier to reach the appropriate level of contact if I’m simply communicating with my partner. Then again, I wasn’t raised in the south and I have experience working with women in a military role.
Just some observations I’ve seen work for mis-matched partners… Hope it helps
Re: Hitting women
Yes, communication is key. If you are 260 pounds, my guess would be that you’ll be mostly partnered with bigger people and since most women are smaller, you may not have to work with them often anyway.
If you do get partnered up with a woman, ask her how hard you can go, also work on technique more than power. I’m 5’1”, 105 pounds and have partnered with people a lot bigger than myself and I have no problem holding the pads for them, so I do think many women will be okay if you go fairly strong. But just talk to them about it if you aren’t sure. And, yes, if you are working on chokes and such, go strong, because it will help them get the feel for a real attack, so you are really doing them a favor.
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